24 replies to this topic

[Warmaster]

The rules on airdrops appear to be silent on weather the ground force making the attack could have performed a Primary Mission prior to making the Air Asssault.

Simply put my question is can a airborne force move to an airbase (using up its primary mission order for the turn) and then be part of an airborne assault?

I find its pretty risky to leave and AIR 40 regiment wiating at an Airbase as the only defender so that it can then make an airborne assault the next turn. If I leave a larger force gaurding the airbase then I have to do a lot of MGFS orders to move out the defenders and then later move someother ones back after the airdrop.

Surely their are better tactics to defend an airbase AND be able to make airdrops every turn. What ae those tactics?

[RTGRuss]

Warmaster, on Nov 21 2005, 07:59 AM, said:

The rules on airdrops appear to be silent on weather the ground force making the attack could have performed a Primary Mission prior to making the Air Asssault.

Simply put my question is can a airborne force move to an airbase (using up its primary mission order for the turn) and then be part of an airborne assault?

I find its pretty risky to leave and AIR 40 regiment wiating at an Airbase as the only defender so that it can then make an airborne assault the next turn.  If I leave a larger force gaurding the airbase then I have to do a lot of MGFS orders to move out the defenders and then later move someother ones back after the airdrop.

Surely their are better tactics to defend an airbase AND be able to make airdrops every turn.  What ae those tactics?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm afraid that the air assault does constitute a primary for both ground force and air force so you can't move a force into a city then execute an air assault mission with that force later in the turn. The ground force you are using in the assault would have to begin the turn in the city where your air force is based.

You could have a larger force in that city of course then execute a MGFS to move units out (leaving just the units you are using in the air assault) prior to the air mission. The MGFS order only constitutes a primary mission for the units actually moving so the units left behind could participate in the subsequent air assault.

That would leave the city with no ground force of course unless you subsequently move other units back into the city (it would have to be different units from the ones that moved in the MGFS previously).

If you are planning on regular air assault ops then you would fly the mission, then MGF/MGFS another airborne unit(s) into place for next turn. Build up the LDBs to high levels to guard against the enemy trying to knock out the airbase with his own air assault.

Russ

[don]

I have a question on the capacity of air transports. The rating of the Air Transports are based on optimum range to be (by) 20% of the groups combat radius. Therefore if the maximum combat radius of the transports was 10 the units could carry the rated capacity 2 movement points? How much could it carry at its maximum combat radius of 10? 20% of it's rated capacity? Does the experience level of the planes play a factor?
Don

[nfbeerse]

Don,

Experience levels of the planes are a factor in the transportrating. See the experience modifiers in the rules book.

Also, the presence of a general on the airbase has a positive effect on the transport rating.

In the rules is a formula to calculate a rating for a give range. This formula also applies for transport-rating.

Hope this helps.

Norbert

[Hamish]

RTGRuss, on Nov 21 2005, 06:51 PM, said:

If you are planning on regular air assault ops then you would fly the mission, then MGF/MGFS another airborne unit(s) into place for next turn.  Build up the LDBs to high levels to guard against the enemy trying to knock out the airbase with his own air assault.

Of course you could make 2 defending armies, one in city A with the airbase, and one in city B. In turn 1 you MGFS all non-airborne units to city C, do an airborne assault with the remaing division/regiment and move the army from city B into city A. You then build an airborne division/regiment in city C. In turn 2 you MGFS all non-airborne units from city A to city B, do an airborne assault with the division that was left behind, move the army from city C to city A, and build another division in city B. That way you always have an army in city A, and you can do an airborne assault every turn. Of course, it requires 2 armies instead of one, but I think it's the only way to do it.

Hope it made sense to you all....

[ShadowKitsune]

Hamish, on Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM, said:

RTGRuss, on Nov 21 2005, 06:51 PM, said:

If you are planning on regular air assault ops then you would fly the mission, then MGF/MGFS another airborne unit(s) into place for next turn.  Build up the LDBs to high levels to guard against the enemy trying to knock out the airbase with his own air assault.

Of course you could make 2 defending armies, one in city A with the airbase, and one in city B. In turn 1 you MGFS all non-airborne units to city C, do an airborne assault with the remaing division/regiment and move the army from city B into city A. You then build an airborne division/regiment in city C. In turn 2 you MGFS all non-airborne units from city A to city B, do an airborne assault with the division that was left behind, move the army from city C to city A, and build another division in city B. That way you always have an army in city A, and you can do an airborne assault every turn. Of course, it requires 2 armies instead of one, but I think it's the only way to do it.

Hope it made sense to you all....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, made sense to me. You have to keep your armies in rotation and have the FUEL and/or Rail Capacity available to keep them moving. I find it very frustrating at times when I want to launch multiple Air Drops from a single Air Base because of the 1 Army/City limitation. That would be a feature I would like in any Victory! upgrade, the ability to have multiple "armies" in a City or Province.

-SK

[Silverwing]

ShadowKitsune, on Nov 25 2005, 02:37 PM, said:

Hamish, on Nov 24 2005, 03:52 PM, said:

RTGRuss, on Nov 21 2005, 06:51 PM, said:

If you are planning on regular air assault ops then you would fly the mission, then MGF/MGFS another airborne unit(s) into place for next turn.  Build up the LDBs to high levels to guard against the enemy trying to knock out the airbase with his own air assault.

Of course you could make 2 defending armies, one in city A with the airbase, and one in city B. In turn 1 you MGFS all non-airborne units to city C, do an airborne assault with the remaing division/regiment and move the army from city B into city A. You then build an airborne division/regiment in city C. In turn 2 you MGFS all non-airborne units from city A to city B, do an airborne assault with the division that was left behind, move the army from city C to city A, and build another division in city B. That way you always have an army in city A, and you can do an airborne assault every turn. Of course, it requires 2 armies instead of one, but I think it's the only way to do it.

Hope it made sense to you all....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yep, made sense to me. You have to keep your armies in rotation and have the FUEL and/or Rail Capacity available to keep them moving. I find it very frustrating at times when I want to launch multiple Air Drops from a single Air Base because of the 1 Army/City limitation. That would be a feature I would like in any Victory! upgrade, the ability to have multiple "armies" in a City or Province.

-SK

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No!
Makes no sense to me. The first part of an Airborne Assault should be like a MGFS-order.
So, regardless of the size of the army force at the airbase you can give an OMA AA order. The airdrop-force splits off from the parent force (which allows for multiple air drops since the parent force has not executed any mission at all)
The second part of the Airborne Assault remains the same.
The format of the order should be something like this:

OMA, AA, Airforce-id, Inactive Armyforce-id, Airborne-Division-1, ...etc, Day/Night, Loc#1, ...etc.

- The location of the Airforce should determine the id of the parent force -

This prevents the ridiculous moving around of armyforces or leaving your airbase undefended. It's also a relatively cheap change. Both the OMA AA & the MGFS orders already exist. I hope these minor changes can be implemented quickly.

(By the way, the same goes for Amphibious Assaults, Embark Army Force, Air Drop Troops & Air Evacuate Troops)

Silverwing

[ShadowKitsune]

Well, I meant that Hamish's answer made sense to me, not that the continuous 'shuffle' did. Actually, if you could have multiple armies in the same city, you could just use the Reorganize Ground [RG] Order, like you can with Armies onboard Naval Transports.

My only concern with your modification, Silverwing, is that it reduces the 'range' you can fly the missing proportionally to the number of Air Assault capable units you're using, since there is a maximum number of variable 'spaces' in the OMA orders (e.g. a 'double' orders worth). I don't think anybody is doing massively long drops with huge amounts (ala Market Garden).

FWIW,
-SK

[Predator]

Quote

I don't think anybody is doing massively long drops with huge amounts (ala Market Garden).

Ah then let me introduce you to the Skymaster. With 25 of these babies anything and everything is possible.

[Spartacus]

Please explaine Predator - have you performed large airdrops, what was it like

[Silverwing]

ShadowKitsune,

Of course, I don't know on what kind of grand scale you play Victory!,
but I've looked at my own orders of previous games and not a single OMA AA or OMN AA would have led to a double order when my proposed changes would have been implemented.

(Your alternative would always require an extra order (a RG-order))

But let's not quibble about details.
We, players, should unite and ask, beg, demand or plead RTG to make these minor changes to the system. To summarize:

I don't want the ridiculous moving around of armies, I don't want to leave my airbases/ports undefended.
And I don't give a #@!$ how it's been done.

Silverwing

[Hamish]

Quote

But let's not quibble about details.
We, players, should unite and ask, beg, demand or plead RTG to make these minor changes to the system. To summarize:

I don't want the ridiculous moving around of armies, I don't want to leave my airbases/ports undefended.
And I don't give a #@!$ how it's been done.

Silverwing

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I've been over this with Russ (in a private mail, or on the forum, I don't remember) and if I recall correctly, it's a coding issue. This cannot be fixed without rewriting a significant portion of the Victory! game engine which is just not an option at this point. We will all have to wait for the long awaited (but as Russ keeps assuring me, still coming) Victory! 2 project.

Hamish

[coothunter]

If the goal is to do an air assault every turn and not leave your base undefended, you don't need to go through all of this force switching. What I do is have the air groups in the air base city. Send them out on the air asssault, then bring in more troops to drop for the next turn. If your enemy were to try an air assault on your city, the new troops would defend.

[Warmaster]

[quote name='coothunter' date='Jan 25 2006, 02:45 PM']
the new troops would defend.
[right]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/right]
[quote]


The new troops rarely defend against the stack of Ju-88's that obliviate the defenders allowing a solitary enemy Air 40 to capture your airbase.


Two signifigant issues for VIC II:

1. Can airpower [u]BY ITSELF[/u] eliminate all defenders? I say[u] NO [/u]the infantry componet of a division is reasonably resistant to air attack (the troops are burrowed deep into cellars and foxholes). Conversely the Armoured portion of a division is extremely vulnerable to air attack. The solutuion is to let the air attacks destroy a divisons offensive potential but not its entire defensive potential.


2. The use of paratroopers on suicide missions is historically and ethically not realsitic. No actual paratroop drop ever occured during WW II that did not allow for the relief or extraction of the airborne unit within a few weeks.

Solution: Allow no airdrop unless within 2 provinces of friendly troops or a coastal province or city. I realize this is a coding nigtmare but name one historical airdrop that does not fit the criteria I have described?

The rules for "suicide" airdrops is already very well covered with the use of Rangers and appears quite realistic.


Would not these two rules alone solve your issues about defending an airbase?

[coothunter]

[quote name='Warmaster' date='Jan 25 2006, 02:54 PM']
[quote name='coothunter' date='Jan 25 2006, 02:45 PM']
the new troops would defend.
[right]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/right]
[quote]


The new troops rarely defend against the stack of Ju-88's that obliviate the defenders allowing a solitary enemy Air 40 to capture your airbase.

[right]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/right]
[/quote]


If you are going up against stacks of Ju-88s, the air base is in trouble anyway.