30 replies to this topic

[El Capitan]

I moved this from the "AP, how does it work" thread to something more appropriate.

ali-t-akua, on Mar 1 2008, 01:00 AM, said:

I have never heard Pete say, "Sorry your turns are late because of all of these high AP convoy routes." Rather I hear him say these really big battles are slowing down the processing and then Locklyn admits he attacked another empire.

Typically, Pete says very little on the board. Just because he doesn't say it doesn't mean it's not an issue. Here's what Pete said this past cycle...

Quote

Orders are done--running industrial production, research etc now. Then on to snapshots, pdf conversion, data files. Many hours to go (this part actually takes quite a while), but now it's in the grind-it-out phase. And we even lose an hour to daylight savings time, ugh.

So, "many hours" (and "many" does not mean just 2 or 3) are needed to finish turn processing after the orders and battles are processed. I'm not a programmer or computer expert, but common sense tells me that the number of empires being processed per cycle and the number of pages generated per empire have to have an impact on processing time. Not just during order processing but also in this post order processing phase.

If this is the case, then extremely high AP convoy routes must be having an impact on processing time, even if Pete hasn't mentioned it directly.

But here's the problem. Hobknob is absolutely correct when he says that large empire management would not be possible without high AP convoy routes. Artificially lowering the cap on AP would be disastrous to the game. It would cripple an empire's ability to successfully trade, colonize, expand, explore, and generate fuel. The effect on fuel generation alone would be enough to stifle an empire's ability to grow and expand, and without this ability the game would quickly die off.

It's not likely that anything can be done to improve the efficiency of the basic cargo carrying convoy route (LC, Move, Warp, Move, Warp, NM, OC, etc., etc.), short of increasing the carrying capacity of a cargo bay which I don't see being feasible.

That leaves the Skim convoy route. Having an Advanced Fuel Shuttle that skimmed 2000 fuel per skim would reduce turn size (game wide) by thousands upon thousands of pages. Even if this didn't speed up processing time (which I think it would), I would still like to see this added to the game.

Advanced empires managing multiple HW's require millions of tons of fuel per turn and the current Fuel Shuttle and/or Fuel installations just don't cut it. Using the Fuel Purification Refinery would tie up 20,000 pop to generated 10 million fuel/turn. Using the current fuel shuttle is much more affordable but to be anywhere close to efficient requires a skimming fleet with hundreds of AP set on a skim convoy.

Pete, what do you think about adding an advanced fuel shuttle? It's prerequisite(s) could be some high level engine (since it currently takes high level engines to generate the amount of fuel we're talking about) and/or some high level generational horizon tech.

[Lord Uriel]

El Capitan, on Mar 13 2008, 03:38 PM, said:

I moved this from the "AP, how does it work" thread to something more appropriate.

ali-t-akua, on Mar 1 2008, 01:00 AM, said:

I have never heard Pete say, "Sorry your turns are late because of all of these high AP convoy routes." Rather I hear him say these really big battles are slowing down the processing and then Locklyn admits he attacked another empire.

Typically, Pete says very little on the board. Just because he doesn't say it doesn't mean it's not an issue. Here's what Pete said this past cycle...

Quote

Orders are done--running industrial production, research etc now. Then on to snapshots, pdf conversion, data files. Many hours to go (this part actually takes quite a while), but now it's in the grind-it-out phase. And we even lose an hour to daylight savings time, ugh.

So, "many hours" (and "many" does not mean just 2 or 3) are needed to finish turn processing after the orders and battles are processed. I'm not a programmer or computer expert, but common sense tells me that the number of empires being processed per cycle and the number of pages generated per empire have to have an impact on processing time. Not just during order processing but also in this post order processing phase.

If this is the case, then extremely high AP convoy routes must be having an impact on processing time, even if Pete hasn't mentioned it directly.

But here's the problem. Hobknob is absolutely correct when he says that large empire management would not be possible without high AP convoy routes. Artificially lowering the cap on AP would be disastrous to the game. It would cripple an empire's ability to successfully trade, colonize, expand, explore, and generate fuel. The effect on fuel generation alone would be enough to stifle an empire's ability to grow and expand, and without this ability the game would quickly die off.

It's not likely that anything can be done to improve the efficiency of the basic cargo carrying convoy route (LC, Move, Warp, Move, Warp, NM, OC, etc., etc.), short of increasing the carrying capacity of a cargo bay which I don't see being feasible.

That leaves the Skim convoy route. Having an Advanced Fuel Shuttle that skimmed 2000 fuel per skim would reduce turn size (game wide) by thousands upon thousands of pages. Even if this didn't speed up processing time (which I think it would), I would still like to see this added to the game.

Advanced empires managing multiple HW's require millions of tons of fuel per turn and the current Fuel Shuttle and/or Fuel installations just don't cut it. Using the Fuel Purification Refinery would tie up 20,000 pop to generated 10 million fuel/turn. Using the current fuel shuttle is much more affordable but to be anywhere close to efficient requires a skimming fleet with hundreds of AP set on a skim convoy.

Pete, what do you think about adding an advanced fuel shuttle? It's prerequisite(s) could be some high level engine (since it currently takes high level engines to generate the amount of fuel we're talking about) and/or some high level generational horizon tech.

What if there already is one, and nobody has found it?

[rfouasnon]

Maybe because the razor wire has never been researched........

[El Capitan]

Lord Uriel, on Mar 13 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

What if there already is one, and nobody has found it?

I think it's safe to say there isn't already one in the game. If Pete had intended this from the start, there would have been an Improved Fuel Shuttle as well. I find it extremely hard to believe that an intermediate item would still be undiscovered at this point in the game.

rfouasnon, on Mar 13 2008, 05:34 PM, said:

Maybe because the razor wire has never been researched........

For a nice change of pace and breath of fresh air, lets try to limit this thread to serious comments only.

[Lord Uriel]

Presuming El Capitan is correct what does an advanced fuel shuttle do to speed up the process on a permanent basis?

It will take some time for empires to build new fuel ships and deploy them to the locations needed. Additionally, I have a hard time thinking that simply because there is new gadget available that players will suddenly scrap ships, delete unnecessary standing orders, and rework convoy routes, just to speed up turn processing. Time consuming and costly to the player and not likely to happen.

Ok, on the possibility of a fancy new age fuel shuttle. Perhaps there isn't something called improved fuel shuttle, or even advanced. However, there may be something that does essentially the same thing, but is called something else. Or, more likely there is some form of high end structure that increases fuel production.

Lord Uriel

[cestvel]

If Advanced Fuel Shuttles would be there and I am able to do 800+ AP skimmers, why should I not
do 800+ AP skimmers with Advanced Fuel Shuttles, so that I have even more Fuel?

This request for new Shuttles is bogus, as it would only help empires not so far into engine tech to skim more fuel.

On the other hand:
Add some code to see if in an Convoy route is only a SKIM command, then condense the output for that convoy route.

So you only get only one block instead of 800+ blocks.

That would solve your supposed processing problem. I would have no problem when these skimmers
would not be able to look for enemy fleets while in the loop. (just check at begin and end maybe).

[TErnest]

cestvel, on Mar 14 2008, 07:00 AM, said:

If Advanced Fuel Shuttles would be there and I am able to do 800+ AP skimmers, why should I not
do 800+ AP skimmers with Advanced Fuel Shuttles, so that I have even more Fuel?

This request for new Shuttles is bogus, as it would only help empires not so far into engine tech to skim more fuel.

On the other hand:
Add some code to see if in an Convoy route is only a SKIM command, then condense the output for that convoy route.

So you only get only one block instead of 800+ blocks.

That would solve your supposed processing problem. I would have no problem when these skimmers
would not be able to look for enemy fleets while in the loop. (just check at begin and end maybe).

I agree with Cestvel. This suggested change would not reduce the number of APs of fuel skimming ships, and therefore would not reduce processing time, nor printout length. It would only serve to reduce the average tonnage of skimming ships.

TErnest

[Breoghan]

This is a purely 'Devils Advocate' question here -

What happens, with this code for condensing the skimming 'convoy' reports down to a beginning and an end only, if a significant event happens somewhere between? Should or would this be a problem with coding?

[cestvel]

Breoghan, on Mar 14 2008, 04:14 PM, said:

This is a purely 'Devils Advocate' question here -

What happens, with this code for condensing the skimming 'convoy' reports down to a beginning and an end only, if a significant event happens somewhere between? Should or would this be a problem with coding?

Well, I would it code like:

Determine if SKIM/OC only
if yes:
ap := AP of Fleet:
fuel_capacity := Fleet Tankage on Fleet
fuel_skimmed = lower(fuel_capacity, skim_capacity);
add AP * Fuel Skimmed to OC-Pop Group.
process reminder as ususal.

Which means it would only be like one MOVE.
Meaning, you won't be missing anything

[El Capitan]

Lord Uriel, on Mar 14 2008, 06:44 AM, said:

However, there may be something that does essentially the same thing, but is called something else. Or, more likely there is some form of high end structure that increases fuel production.

Lord Uriel

Yeah, that's the ticket. Pete's going to have such a mundane item as an advanced fuel shuttle buried so deep into the research tree and have so many prerequisites that it will take over 5 years of game time to find it. Maybe you have to explore really odd orbits to get the elusive advanced fuel shuttle knowledge. You know, something like a hot terrestrial with a hot gasses atmosphere that's 10,000 AU's from a brown dwarf. Or more likely, I bet there's a really rare neutral race out there that lives on gas giants that has an intact superduper fuel purification plant and if you could take them over and analyze the installation you'll get the super secret prereqs. You know, I did find one a few cycles back but it was demolished. Darn the luck. Maybe next time I'll find one intact.

Seriously though, I've always been disappointed that there weren't advances in fuel shuttle technology and that the fuel producing installations stopped at the fuel purification refinery. So, what I find bogus is not the idea of an advanced fuel shuttle or a more advanced installation, but the fact that in order to produce enough fuel for a large empire, you're forced to use extremely high AP fleets that add hundreds of bogus pages to a turn. That's what I find bogus.

Cestvel, it would not help empires that are not so far into engine technology if the prereq was a high level engine as I stated.

And again, if it helped reduce processing time or not, I still think it would be a useful item for an advanced empire. Everything else in the game advances -- industrial complexes, stripmines, mining (by way of DCS and ICE), defenses, weapons, armor, shields, ground combat technology, engines, jump drives, jump survey sensors. Heck, you can even advance your species by way of species engineering. But an advanced fuel shuttle is out of the question? It just never made sense to me.

[Breoghan]

Another comment, not so 'Devils Advocate'-like this time.

One of the problems with vast empires throughout history is that there has been a limit to expansion, not so much through opposition, but through logistics. At the point where the opposition's resistance outweighs the expanding empire's ability to wage war at a practical level, it is usually supplies and reinforcement procurement etc that proves the sticking point.

Successful empires have always been self limiting.

In this case the increasing difficulty in getting fuel for ever-increasing vast armadas of super-fleets would act as a limiting factor. If it were otherwise then the larger empires would become unstoppable juggernauts that would live on until the player concerned got bored, or people around him started thinking it was not worth the effort - the same end result.

[cestvel]

Well, basically the advance for a fuel shuttle is Engine technology

The request to add advanced fuel shuttles to the game, *because* they would reduce pages is the bogus item, not the would be item for itself.

If such an item would be in the game it would multiply your current fuel skimming ability,
with a prereq of high engines it would even more break the game, as people with high AP can skim more fuel, but with high engine plus advanced fuel shuttles they can skim even more fuel than
the ones who have no high AP to start with.

So please keep this seperate:
1) Fuel production gathering (which I think is fine)
2) surplus output of orders, which bogs down turn processing, which *may* be a problem
with 800+ AP Skimmers *just* for fuel.

And as stated above, Advanced Fuel Shuttles will *not* help you with pages, as we are all greedy

And no, I have no high AP skimmers (I think currently a 20 AP skimmer is the highest I have in operation).

[Breoghan]

I agree without the least quibble that increased capacity fuel collectors would just mean more fuel collected as a result, using the same number of APs as at present - therefore not decreasing the game processing required by a single byte. That was actually meant to be my point. There has to be a natural limiting factor within the game arena, else all the rest would be too easy (comparatively). Improved fuel capacity skimmers would be used to their max as are the current capacity shuttles, and this would ultimately take away or significantly reduce a major limitation for unimpeded expansion, together with its attendant need for careful planning and resource management needed for sustained operations. It would actually detract from gameplay, in my view. I was simply looking at the question from within the game, but with the same end product of too much "paperwork" resulting regardless of the capacities involved.

(Says I, wishing I had those problems to deal with in my small 'empires')

One thing I'm getting out of this as a non-core player is that planning ahead for fuel, even at this stage, should have a lot more weight given to it than I had previously thought.

[El Capitan]

Breoghan, on Mar 14 2008, 10:57 AM, said:

...In this case the increasing difficulty in getting fuel for ever-increasing vast armadas of super-fleets would act as a limiting factor...

On the contrary. The point is, it's not difficult. It's very easy for empires to generate millions upon millions of tons of surplus fuel with high AP convoy routes. The problem is, it generates thousands of useless pages game wide.

Does this slow down turn processing? I think so but I don't know for sure.

Is it an irritant on my turns? Yes.

If I could generate the same amt. of fuel with a 10 or 20 AP fleet vs. a 100-200 AP fleet, which am I going to use? The 10-20 AP. I'm not so greedy that I need a surplus of a billion fuel lying around that will never get used. I could find a much better use for the engines. That's where my greed comes into play -- into eeking out every ounce of efficiency, not into hoarding a billion tons of fuel that will never be used.

[hobknob]

Breoghan, on Mar 14 2008, 09:14 AM, said:

This is a purely 'Devils Advocate' question here -

What happens, with this code for condensing the skimming 'convoy' reports down to a beginning and an end only, if a significant event happens somewhere between? Should or would this be a problem with coding?

Nothing can happen in the middle of a convoy route. Once they start running they run to completion so it is only the first encounter that can possibly trigger a battle etc. Since they run to completion there is no chance for another empire's fleet to somehow slip into the pathway after part of the run has been accomplished.

Breoghan, on Mar 14 2008, 10:57 AM, said:

Another comment, not so 'Devils Advocate'-like this time.

One of the problems with vast empires throughout history is that there has been a limit to expansion, not so much through opposition, but through logistics. At the point where the opposition's resistance outweighs the expanding empire's ability to wage war at a practical level, it is usually supplies and reinforcement procurement etc that proves the sticking point.

Successful empires have always been self limiting.

In this case the increasing difficulty in getting fuel for ever-increasing vast armadas of super-fleets would act as a limiting factor. If it were otherwise then the larger empires would become unstoppable juggernauts that would live on until the player concerned got bored, or people around him started thinking it was not worth the effort - the same end result.

The problem we face is that it is not our limits, but the game program limits that are being stretched. I can continue to build 1000 AP+ fleets to skim and have all the fuel I will ever need, but that won't solve the issue of those same skimmers adding 100's and 1000's of pages to my printout and hours and hours of time to turn processing.