12 replies to this topic

[Warmaster]

I am a bit distressed that for 2 months no one wishes to discuss the S & T of Victory!

All of my conclusions from this fact are a bit negative and bode ill for a game we all love and respect RTG for giving us the opportunity to play it. My thoughts for all this silence are:

1) No new players are joining the game with questions on how to play
2) Veteran players have NOTHING more they can learn (or do it privately with e-mails between themselves)
3) Players are bored and finding other venues for their paper mayhem.


Not a good trend. It alls seams to boil down to STAGNATION of the game system and the player base.

Could RTG give us all a glimpse of the future and a timetable for Victory II??? Will we see a more vibrant gaming system and enhance revenues for RTG in the foreseeable future?

Along those same lines what is the future for Project Overlord?

[Greybeard]

Well,
new players are still joining the game.
I don't know at what rate they drop out.

But as a new player I can tell that I get a lot of questions answered by private email etc...

[Predator]

There is alot you can do within the game of victory that is not necessarily revealed by the rulebook. If any new player has a question or needs help feel free to send me a message through the forum I will be glad to help or answer any questions.....As for Victory II i think alot of us have given up hope on that front ;(

[chairman lar]

Greybeard, on Mar 31 2009, 01:52 PM, said:

Well,new players are still joining the game.
I don't know at what rate they drop out.
But as a new player I can tell that I get a lot of questions answered by private email etc...

Well put, Old One!

Warmaster, A lot of this game does go on behind the scenes and I [for one] am greatful!

I'm not spending a fortune on post-cards [remember those?] & phone calls.

There are lots of new players out there [Walsid, you listening?] and everyone I've dealt with has had plenty of questions [or answers, even if wrong] .

Stagnated?? Hardly. I started with RTG when the Boys were in Sacto, left for a number of years, and came back to find that while the Fomat had changed; you still have to be at the top of your game to survive.

Thank Goodness most of the questions have been answered by other players posting on the Forum for anyone to read [if they bother to look] { see above post-card savings}.

Victory II? I believe that was discussed back around '89 or so, something to do with a Pacific Arena with Japan involved; but good ideas don't always show at the right moment [See Darwin's Mentor].

Project OverLord? Just wasn't meant to be, I guess; but you'll still get an answer if you ask Russ & Pete [again, research Forum].

So, my friend, read the 6 or so years of data posted; make contact via PM [then email] with anyones Avatar you can find; lament about the 'secret' groups if you will [or join the secret group of disgruntled independants]; and be very thankful your turn results don't depend on a 3-week turn-around because your 'buddy' didn't tell you he dropped!!!

[Race Pilsner]

There are still new players joining the game.

I'm not one of them, I started playing in the early 1990's. Also took a number of years off and then returned.

To you other vets of Victory, the game is still the same great strategy game it was way back then when I started. The tone of the players however has changed radically.

There seems to be a much higher degree these days of meaness in the game. A lot more people now seem to utilize name calling and character assination. It appears that this is often done simply as a tactic in order to gain some kind of advantage by recruiting the non alligned to their cause.

Also, the use of mole TA's to infiltrate other alliances and then betray them is a truly despicable development. I've heard a number of terrible stories about this practice from other players, and I've had it done to me.

This especially is the kind of thing that makes a great game terribly unhospitable to new players. They join a new game thinking other players will have some degree of honor and right away they get set upon by one of these moles. I was actually contacted by one before turn 1 in my first game back. I still rue my decision to TA to this deadbeat who was probably not even a real player position.

People take offense to all kinds of things that aren't against the rules, but this practice will destroy Victory as a viable and growing community if it isn't stopped and it can only be stopped by the vets of this game. They know who is doing it and vets in any game are looked up to by new players.

Back in game 29 my TA's and I were at war with a guy named Omar Mirza and his Ally who we shall call Agent L. That was in the days before the Internet when there was a Victory BBS.

Omar was the kind of opponent you love to hate: He was brash, verbose, a real blunt instrument on the BBS. I decided to approach his TA (Agent L) to see if he could be flipped. I was amazed to discover that only three emails and a phone call had Agent L sending me Omar's turns! I didn't even ask for them, it really wouldn't have occured to me.

He not only offered me Omar's latest three turns, he also offered me his entire collection of game start ups.

What he wanted in return was to join our TA group so he could help trash his soon to be former Ally. They hadn't yet TA'd but he had agreed to TA on some future turn. To prove their trustworthyness to each other, they had been sending their turns to each other since the start up turn. This was just before the 1995 Rules Addendum, so TA's at that time couldn't be broken. During that game the 1995 Rules Addendum took effect and our game later voted to accept the TA rule change. I'm uncertain if Agent L had ever really intended to honor his pledge to TA to Omar.

In the heat of the moment I accepted the turn reports and told him I would speak to my TA's about his proposal. He actually offered his TA's turns as "a show of good faith"!

When I got off the phone with him I really thought it through and I came to the conclusion that anyone who would roll their TA like that could never be trusted. Yes, all is fair in love and war, but who would want such a scum bag as a TA?

I spoke to my other TA's about it and we all agreed we couldn't accept Agent L's offer. I wrote back to him and told him my TA's all said no and I had to agree with them. Then I contacted Omar and in the course of an hour long phone call during which I read him parts of his turns to prove Agent L had rolled him, I acquired a new friend and Ally. Agent L dropped and perhaps left the game entirely, not sure what happened to him. Over the following years I had many interesting conversations with Omar. He was a brilliant and funny guy and I was fortunate to get to know him.

I tell this story because I miss that kind of player. One who values their TA's and stands for integrity in their committments to other players. That was what upset Omar the most. Not that his turns were given away, but that his Ally was such a rat and so untrustworthy.

I'm not saying there aren't players like Omar anymore, but there seems to be an increasing amount of mole TA's in the game and they seem to really go after newer players or players they perceive as newer ones. This is a practice that should be reviled by all.

I'm also still hoping for Victory II someday. If it's even better than Victory then I will be a loyal customer and will do my part in recruiting new players for it. I'm sure all of you will as well.

Race Pilsner

[Deathwalker]

I have played several Victory games now and in each of them, I have encountered at least one NEW player. Unfortunately, I have seen many of these players become the target of several veteran TA's, who dissect their positions as quickly as possible.

One of the great things about Victory is the complexity of the rules, which allows for a variety of strategies and tactics. Unfortunately, it also makes the game difficult and time-cosuming to learn.

One of the best opportunities we have to grow the player base in this game is for veterans to serve as MENTORS to new players. Most of us contact our neighbors early in the game. If we find a new player is our neighbor, why not offer to help that player learn the game. If you can fit that player into your group of TA's, that is ideal. If not, at least ALL with him, give him one safe border, and coach him on the importance of diplomacy, setting up defenses, managing his economy, etc.

I am trying out this approach in one of my games and if it works out well for both me and the player I am assisting, I am sure I will do it again. The more tough opponents we create, the better the game. . . . .

Deathwalker

[Sheikh Makum bin Sultan Al Rashi]

Deathwalker, on Apr 3 2009, 10:33 AM, said:

I am trying out this approach in one of my games and if it works out well for both me and the player I am assisting, I am sure I will do it again. The more tough opponents we create, the better the game. . . . .
Deathwalker

Nice approach. Maybe an idea for a special 25 (or more or less) turns 'sandbox game' where newbies are coupled with experienced players to learn the tricks of the trade.

THE SHeikh!

[Predator]

We took a relatively new player under our wing in 78 against the rest of our ta blocks advice that we entered the game with. He proved to be a valuable and trusted ally and will finish the game in 5 turns. Not enough can be said for developing new blood for this game....

[Slicer]

Predator, on Apr 3 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

We took a relatively new player under our wing in 78 against the rest of our ta blocks advice that we entered the game with. He proved to be a valuable and trusted ally and will finish the game in 5 turns. Not enough can be said for developing new blood for this game....

I concur. I was able to bring three new players into the game within the last year alone! One of them 'refuses' to be my TA, ever! What's funny is that he is a (somewhat) former wargaming buddy of mine. The other two guys are eagerly learning and though make a mistake from time to time, are really getting the hang of this faster than I ever did. I'm lucky to have them on my side. Thanks Jeff and Pete!

[chairman lar]

Slicer, on Apr 11 2009, 07:38 AM, said:

Predator, on Apr 3 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

We took a relatively new player under our wing in 78 against the rest of our ta blocks advice that we entered the game with. He proved to be a valuable and trusted ally and will finish the game in 5 turns. Not enough can be said for developing new blood for this game....

I concur. I was able to bring three new players into the game within the last year alone! One of them 'refuses' to be my TA, ever! What's funny is that he is a (somewhat) former wargaming buddy of mine. The other two guys are eagerly learning and though make a mistake from time to time, are really getting the hang of this faster than I ever did. I'm lucky to have them on my side. Thanks Jeff and Pete!

Kudos for recognizing the future of the game!

It's amazing how many forget they were once 'new' themselves. I should also point out that nothing focuses your attention quicker than an innocent 'noob' question that you never thought of.

I'll bring in [or mentor] anyone interested in Vic! or SN. Predator's buddy not-withstanding, it helps clear out the TA base a little, provides additional options in tactics & diplomacy, and generally raises the level of gameplay itself.

Perhaps those who feel the game stagnating have isolated themselves??

Here's one for all the new guys & the ones who brought them in!

[Marklen X]

I have been playing Russ and Pete's games since the Schubel days, with Global Supremacy. When they were in Sac, we played face to face with them a lot. I love their games, and would like to see more newbies. I have always had a soft spot for new players, and think a mentor approach is the right one.

My last 4 games I have played, I signed up either alone or with one other player, and aquired allies as I went. Some were veterans, some were new guys, but that approach has opened an entire new group of Victory! friends.

I lament the people who try and take advantage of those new players. They likely drive them away for good. Anybody who is new and wishes any help or advice, can always feel free to call on me.

[elpasopete]

Slicer, on Apr 11 2009, 10:38 AM, said:

Predator, on Apr 3 2009, 11:22 AM, said:

We took a relatively new player under our wing in 78 against the rest of our ta blocks advice that we entered the game with. He proved to be a valuable and trusted ally and will finish the game in 5 turns. Not enough can be said for developing new blood for this game....

I concur. I was able to bring three new players into the game within the last year alone! One of them 'refuses' to be my TA, ever! What's funny is that he is a (somewhat) former wargaming buddy of mine. The other two guys are eagerly learning and though make a mistake from time to time, are really getting the hang of this faster than I ever did. I'm lucky to have them on my side. Thanks Jeff and Pete!

ah, shucks,.... your welcome. And thanks for all the tips. I just realized that I'm up against guys with more games then I have turns turned in! ugh

small goals- turn 10, then 25........

[Tommy Atkins]

elpasopete, on Jun 2 2009, 01:16 PM, said:

ah, shucks,.... your welcome. And thanks for all the tips. I just realized that I'm up against guys with more games then I have turns turned in! ugh
small goals- turn 10, then 25........

Don't let that bother you. Some of them have even less to show for their efforts than you do.