109 replies to this topic

[H. S. Lahman]

I am new to SN and a couple of things puzzle me about the game.

On the forums several players say that it is important to have lifeform combat capabilities for attacking somebody's homeworld. The implication is that there will be lots of unarmed hand-to-hand combat. IOW, what the forums seem to be saying is analogous to saying that to wage war with today's rl technology one needs a lot of muscles and agility. What bothers me is that any species capable of spaceflight is going to have enough technology for at least handguns to even the playing field, not to mention the ability to bomb it into oblivion from space and then terrraform it.

If the lifeform characteristics really do play a significant part in ground combat, what is the rationale? The only thing I can think of is that it is necessary for game balance to prevent players from loading up excessively on research and birthrate.

Related advice from the forums suggest saving 300-700 SPs to be converted into RPs. It seems to me that is a very short term benefit compared to something like higher birthrate. For that to be valuable one would need (a) a very close neighbor at setup and ( that neighbor would also have to be a new setup. Then an initial tech advantage could be useful for a blitzkrieg. I am hoping new setups are not jammed together that way.

Speaking of birthrate... Rapid population growth seems to be critical to the economy -- more so than most scifi empire games. Is that correct or am I missing something?

[Breoghan]

H. S. Lahman, on Jul 31 2009, 09:55 AM, said:

I am new to SN and a couple of things puzzle me about the game.

On the forums several players say that it is important to have lifeform combat capabilities for attacking somebody's homeworld. The implication is that there will be lots of unarmed hand-to-hand combat. IOW, what the forums seem to be saying is analogous to saying that to wage war with today's rl technology one needs a lot of muscles and agility. What bothers me is that any species capable of spaceflight is going to have enough technology for at least handguns to even the playing field, not to mention the ability to bomb it into oblivion from space and then terrraform it.

If the lifeform characteristics really do play a significant part in ground combat, what is the rationale? The only thing I can think of is that it is necessary for game balance to prevent players from loading up excessively on research and birthrate.

Related advice from the forums suggest saving 300-700 SPs to be converted into RPs. It seems to me that is a very short term benefit compared to something like higher birthrate. For that to be valuable one would need (a) a very close neighbor at setup and ( that neighbor would also have to be a new setup. Then an initial tech advantage could be useful for a blitzkrieg. I am hoping new setups are not jammed together that way.

Speaking of birthrate... Rapid population growth seems to be critical to the economy -- more so than most scifi empire games. Is that correct or am I missing something?

One thing about rl military that translates into this game - you can win the technology war hands down, but you still have to put boots on the ground to take your objective. If they have ground tech that is superior to yours then you are going to be at a one to one disadvantage. Advice - scrambling to play catch-up later in the game is not something you want to be doing.

[cestvel]

H. S. Lahman, on Jul 31 2009, 04:55 PM, said:

I am new to SN and a couple of things puzzle me about the game.

On the forums several players say that it is important to have lifeform combat capabilities for attacking somebody's homeworld. The implication is that there will be lots of unarmed hand-to-hand combat. IOW, what the forums seem to be saying is analogous to saying that to wage war with today's rl technology one needs a lot of muscles and agility. What bothers me is that any species capable of spaceflight is going to have enough technology for at least handguns to even the playing field, not to mention the ability to bomb it into oblivion from space and then terrraform it.

If the lifeform characteristics really do play a significant part in ground combat, what is the rationale? The only thing I can think of is that it is necessary for game balance to prevent players from loading up excessively on research and birthrate.

Related advice from the forums suggest saving 300-700 SPs to be converted into RPs. It seems to me that is a very short term benefit compared to something like higher birthrate. For that to be valuable one would need (a) a very close neighbor at setup and ( that neighbor would also have to be a new setup. Then an initial tech advantage could be useful for a blitzkrieg. I am hoping new setups are not jammed together that way.

Speaking of birthrate... Rapid population growth seems to be critical to the economy -- more so than most scifi empire games. Is that correct or am I missing something?

It is not the Close Combat (Hand to Hand), which is meant, but the DEF(ense)-Rating. If you do a brain-in-the-jar, you will end up
with troops, that have a DEF-Rating of 0.02 "standard (aka human)" divisions. which means, you loose 50 divisions when a standard
race will only loose one division. Think about an army of ants attacking a human army. One hit from a human bullet might kill whole
platoon, while a whole division of ants shooting their bullets might be enough to kill a single human.

Close Combat is an important thing in the game mechanics, because it is the only rating that can go up to +30 instead the normal +10.

[rfouasnon]

You probably will not find your neighbor for about a years worth of turns , so in the beginning there is no such thing as a blitzkrieg . Brain in the jar is super impressive on research , but will be at a disadvantage in a ground war ( probably as a good brain in the jar , you stop any alien from even being able to set foot on your ground by blasting his ships in space before they have a chance to land troops ) . As the game progresses , you have the opportunity to get several levels of species engineering , and you can make right some of the negatives you set up in your initial setup . Probably a decent number to shoot for to keep for srp1 is about 300 to 600 points ...you can do more , but then you have to do fast research to correct the negatives.....brain in the jar would be something like where you spend the points to get " long life " , phenomenal sensory , and phenomenal intelligence , but for that take minuses in things like size , agility , constitution , and other things . Reproduction is absolutely essential , because to grow , you have to be able to man more mines , industries , etc . The game is totally addictive , but you absolutely can easily play the first year with just one turn sheet each round.....but if you want to get out and explore and build lots of ships , then you will not be satisfied with just one turn sheet . You can run a good empire for a long time with just two turn sheets , make good progress , and move everything , and can do this for quite some time , but as time progresses , you will later even outgrow two turnsheets , and in reality , the sky is the limit . The game is great fun , and welcome .

[Coconutheads]

One thing you have to remember H.S., game mechanics in SN:ROTE do not correlate 100% with real life.

While I agree that a spacefaring race that has developed interstellar travel SHOULD have figgured out how to build a main battle tank or a recoil-less rifle or an attack helicopter, it's simply not the case in this game. If you want your ground troops to use main battle tanks or recoil-less rifles or attack helicopters, you must research up the tech tree in order to use those techs. So, don't get too hung up in comparing the game to RL... it bugged me for quite a while but over time you learn to accept it (or quit out of frustration).

Regarding space versus ground combat, think of it this way. You can clear orbit and rule the skies with your starships, but game mechanics are set up so that until you capture an opponents HW, you gain nothing. You can issue BOMB orders, which cause your fleets to destroy ground installations with MDD's but you'll never actually capture the planet that way (and I understand that BOMB orders are set to be relatively ineffective in SN, again not mirroring real life).

The only way to make a gain in SN:ROTE is by dropping troops on a world and vanquishing the opponents armies. Only then will you be in control of a new world to add to your empire.

[Damiano]

Coconutheads, on Aug 1 2009, 07:39 AM, said:

One thing you have to remember H.S., game mechanics in SN:ROTE do not correlate 100% with real life.

While I agree that a spacefaring race that has developed interstellar travel SHOULD have figgured out how to build a main battle tank or a recoil-less rifle or an attack helicopter, it's simply not the case in this game. If you want your ground troops to use main battle tanks or recoil-less rifles or attack helicopters, you must research up the tech tree in order to use those techs. So, don't get too hung up in comparing the game to RL... it bugged me for quite a while but over time you learn to accept it (or quit out of frustration).

Regarding space versus ground combat, think of it this way. You can clear orbit and rule the skies with your starships, but game mechanics are set up so that until you capture an opponents HW, you gain nothing. You can issue BOMB orders, which cause your fleets to destroy ground installations with MDD's but you'll never actually capture the planet that way (and I understand that BOMB orders are set to be relatively ineffective in SN, again not mirroring real life).

The only way to make a gain in SN:ROTE is by dropping troops on a world and vanquishing the opponents armies. Only then will you be in control of a new world to add to your empire.

Also, even if you bomb a planet back to the stone age, any divisions they have, will have ducked and covered so will still be there, training, getting new toys, and waiting, waiting...

[Viro]

rfouasnon, on Aug 1 2009, 05:09 AM, said:

You probably will not find your neighbor for about a years worth of turns , so in the beginning there is no such thing as a blitzkrieg.

Is this true in most cases? Or would a year apply to turtles who are actively trying to hide themselves. If I explore at a reasonable (average?) rate, how long does it take to meet your neighbors?

If it takes 27 odd turns to meet your neighbors, how can one hope to specialize in a technology to trade later?

[cestvel]

With my youngest it took 27 turns to meet my first neighbour. That position did some exploration, but was not fentically doing so. (Just used Pathfinders with Scouts to crack up to C), with one col droppper to
crack higher in systems with planets. The position did not use SRP to get higher JSS.

[H. S. Lahman]

I understand that ground combat is necessary for capturing worlds. I also understand the desire for simulation with a single multiplier (DEF). That's fine.

What I don't understand is why physical characteristics would have anything to do with that multiplier. Unless one is a neanderthal, the day is always carried by numbers, tactics, logistics, and weapons technology -- especially in large scale warfare. (Two hundred guys in iron shirts with muskets and horses conquered both the Aztec's and the Mayan's entire civilizations.) Numbers, tactics, and logistics are handled separately in the game system so that just leaves weapons to determine the multiplier. IOW, what I do not understand is why the game system simulates the DEF multiplier using irrelevant physical characteristics rather then the much more relevant weapons technology available.

Also, no one answered why it is better to save 300-700 SPs for early research rather than investing them in characteristics like increased birth rate or CB advanatages. If you don't meet anyone for 20+ turns, it seems to me that research advantage will be pretty marginal by then. Surely strategic decisions (e.g., colonization, production, research, etc.) will have more effect in that time (unless research is VERY slow in SN).

[cestvel]

H. S. Lahman, on Aug 1 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

I understand that ground combat is necessary for capturing worlds. I also understand the desire for simulation with a single multiplier (DEF). That's fine.

What I don't understand is why physical characteristics would have anything to do with that multiplier. Unless one is a neanderthal, the day is always carried by numbers, tactics, logistics, and weapons technology -- especially in large scale warfare. (Two hundred guys in iron shirts with muskets and horses conquered both the Aztec's and the Mayan's entire civilizations.) Numbers, tactics, and logistics are handled separately in the game system so that just leaves weapons to determine the multiplier. IOW, what I do not understand is why the game system simulates the DEF multiplier using irrelevant physical characteristics rather then the much more relevant weapons technology available.

Also, no one answered why it is better to save 300-700 SPs for early research rather than investing them in characteristics like increased birth rate or CB advanatages. If you don't meet anyone for 20+ turns, it seems to me that research advantage will be pretty marginal by then. Surely strategic decisions (e.g., colonization, production, research, etc.) will have more effect in that time (unless research is VERY slow in SN).

Well, the 200 guys had some support from a couple thousand indians opposed to the Aztec rule
The spaniards were close to being defeated a couple of times, because the Aztecs had the numbers.
(please re-read my example with the ants above, think about halfing a human with every level down to tiny.)

Early techs require 12 RCs (normally done by one RC), so 12 turns, then the next one needs 27.
So a race with no SRP usage has level 3 weapons and armor. A race with SRP spends (12 + 27 + 48) and has level 4 weapons and armor by turn 6, spending RCs on level 5 already halfway through, when you encounter them. So a SRP race with 700 SRP has done about 10 tech trees up to level 4 ! Plus the rest on your level, when you meet up.

[Lord Deependra]

Viro, on Aug 1 2009, 06:56 PM, said:

rfouasnon, on Aug 1 2009, 05:09 AM, said:

You probably will not find your neighbor for about a years worth of turns , so in the beginning there is no such thing as a blitzkrieg.

Is this true in most cases? Or would a year apply to turtles who are actively trying to hide themselves. If I explore at a reasonable (average?) rate, how long does it take to meet your neighbors?

If it takes 27 odd turns to meet your neighbors, how can one hope to specialize in a technology to trade later?

Even actively looking, you should have about a year to prepare.
As for specialising for trade, you can ask on the forum for people who are starting up at the same time as they will be your neighbours.

[rfouasnon]

Oh yes , and when Cestvel says one of his positions made first contact on turn 27 , I have a position that is on turn 42 , already scouted out well beyond 8 from the homeworld , and has yet to find its neighbors...and that position has been aggressively exploring , by now MkIV JSS on scouts , and still has yet to find its neighbors....so yeah , sometimes more breathing room between positions than what you might expect .

[Breoghan]

rfouasnon, on Aug 1 2009, 07:25 PM, said:

Oh yes , and when Cestvel says one of his positions made first contact on turn 27 , I have a position that is on turn 42 , already scouted out well beyond 8 from the homeworld , and has yet to find its neighbors...and that position has been aggressively exploring , by now MkIV JSS on scouts , and still has yet to find its neighbors....so yeah , sometimes more breathing room between positions than what you might expect .

...and sometimes you can simply go through the wrong WP and missed 'em altogether. The further you go from HW base, the more branches of WPs there are to explore. It takes time and luck, more than you can imagine.

[rfouasnon]

Or they are turtles , and have no scouts out with their particular position.....just over 25 fleets of scouts / wp crackers using anywhere from 1.5 to 2.5 turnsheets methodically surverying new wps and doing system scans each turn , and no alien sightings.....and yes , all of the ships are equipped with sensors ( in fact multiple sensors ) .

[H. S. Lahman]

cestvel, on Aug 1 2009, 01:25 PM, said:

H. S. Lahman, on Aug 1 2009, 07:15 PM, said:

I understand that ground combat is necessary for capturing worlds. I also understand the desire for simulation with a single multiplier (DEF). That's fine.

What I don't understand is why physical characteristics would have anything to do with that multiplier. Unless one is a neanderthal, the day is always carried by numbers, tactics, logistics, and weapons technology -- especially in large scale warfare. (Two hundred guys in iron shirts with muskets and horses conquered both the Aztec's and the Mayan's entire civilizations.) Numbers, tactics, and logistics are handled separately in the game system so that just leaves weapons to determine the multiplier. IOW, what I do not understand is why the game system simulates the DEF multiplier using irrelevant physical characteristics rather then the much more relevant weapons technology available.

Also, no one answered why it is better to save 300-700 SPs for early research rather than investing them in characteristics like increased birth rate or CB advanatages. If you don't meet anyone for 20+ turns, it seems to me that research advantage will be pretty marginal by then. Surely strategic decisions (e.g., colonization, production, research, etc.) will have more effect in that time (unless research is VERY slow in SN).

Well, the 200 guys had some support from a couple thousand indians opposed to the Aztec rule
The spaniards were close to being defeated a couple of times, because the Aztecs had the numbers.
(please re-read my example with the ants above, think about halfing a human with every level down to tiny.)

A couple of thousand vs. a couple of million. But weapons, tactics, and logistics still carried the day, not the fact that the Aztec warriors were probably in a lot better shape than the Spaniards. Size only makes a difference in the extreme of many orders of magnitude. Having a hard shell, claws, and two barbed tails doesn't make any difference in the face of laser rifles. [In my misspent youth I went on a big game safari in Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe). I never went on another because the critters never really had a chance so I didn't see much challenge. But if I hadn't had a big honking gun I wouldn't be here.]

So my original question still stands: why are physical lifeform charactreristics important to game play (via DEF) rather than simply being RPG context?

Quote

Early techs require 12 RCs (normally done by one RC), so 12 turns, then the next one needs 27.
So a race with no SRP usage has level 3 weapons and armor. A race with SRP spends (12 + 27 + 48) and has level 4 weapons and armor by turn 6, spending RCs on level 5 already halfway through, when you encounter them. So a SRP race with 700 SRP has done about 10 tech trees up to level 4 ! Plus the rest on your level, when you meet up.

That's pretty slow for an initial tech tree, which would make some difference favoring saving SPs. But even then you only get L4+ for about 8 techs w/ 700 SPs as opposed to 1 tech w/ 0 SPs. Usually tech tree level advances result in a 2-5% increase in performance per level, which probably wouldn't overcome good tactics and a lot more ships. Assuming one can build RCs on T1, one should also be able to close that gap substantially as well. Are you saying that each SN tech level advance produces much larger increases in performance and/or more RCs cannot be built immediately? That would certainly favor saving a lot of SPs.