50 replies to this topic

[Gary Carpenter]

Pete has just informed me that after the first turn when you have put a new pop seg on an enemy world and find out the POP SEG number of a newly created pop seg, that the other side can GATK and take your pop seg, and any troops you put in the pop seg. SO you need to put down new pop segs after the probe attack or if you do not get the ships there to do the probe, you have to start over and do a new colb to keep the enemy from getting the pop seg.

SO now the enemy can SPAM GATK, and take any pop segs that have been there more than one turn the minute you put a troop in them and the troop will now also be owned by the enemy.


THIS IS NOT what I have been told by PETE for the last 7 years.

[Gary Carpenter]

to clarify let me tell you how it works

Turn 1 you do a COLB on an enemy world.

Turn 2 your troop ship fails to arrive with troops, but your ally arrives and does a COLB

Turn 3 you unload a troops, into that two turn old POP SEG, on pulse 35

On pulse 36 the enemy GATKs, and taikes your pop seg, and gets your pop seg and the troops you put in it AND gets your allies pop seg that is SUPPOSED to be SAFE from this kind of cheating.

SO in order to take a HW if anything slows you down, like wanting to do a probe the HW first, you will have to put down a new pop seg every turn, or Every other turn if an ally is involved AND you will have to make sure NO other pop seg has something in it

[RTGPete]

Gary Carpenter, on Oct 10 2009, 01:15 PM, said:

to clarify let me tell you how it works

Turn 1 you do a COLB on an enemy world.

Turn 2 your troop ship fails to arrive with troops, but your ally arrives and does a COLB

Turn 3 you unload a troops, into that two turn old POP SEG, on pulse 35

On pulse 36 the enemy GATKs, and taikes your pop seg, and gets your pop seg and the troops you put in it AND gets your allies pop seg that is SUPPOSED to be SAFE from this kind of cheating.

SO in order to take a HW if anything slows you down, like wanting to do a probe the HW first, you will have to put down a new pop seg every turn, or Every other turn if an ally is involved AND you will have to make sure NO other pop seg has something in it

Nah, just get your troops down and probe on the turn following the COLB. Spammiong COLB or GATK orders does only one thing: it slows down turn processing and greatly confuses the issue (causing more problems that you don't want).

Empires have been conquering worlds for a long, long time and haven't had to do anything like you suggest, which is good because delaying processing time isn't good for anyone.

Sometimes an empty pop group gets conquered anyway before an attacker has had a reasonable chance to attack (in your specific case, you had several turns), but it's pretty rare. In those cases I offer to create a new pop group to give the attacker another chance to get troops down.

[Gary Carpenter]

RTGPete, on Oct 10 2009, 12:26 PM, said:

Gary Carpenter, on Oct 10 2009, 01:15 PM, said:

to clarify let me tell you how it works

Turn 1 you do a COLB on an enemy world.

Turn 2 your troop ship fails to arrive with troops, but your ally arrives and does a COLB

Turn 3 you unload a troops, into that two turn old POP SEG, on pulse 35

On pulse 36 the enemy GATKs, and taikes your pop seg, and gets your pop seg and the troops you put in it AND gets your allies pop seg that is SUPPOSED to be SAFE from this kind of cheating.

SO in order to take a HW if anything slows you down, like wanting to do a probe the HW first, you will have to put down a new pop seg every turn, or Every other turn if an ally is involved AND you will have to make sure NO other pop seg has something in it

Nah, just get your troops down and probe on the turn following the COLB. Spammiong COLB or GATK orders does only one thing: it slows down turn processing and greatly confuses the issue (causing more problems that you don't want).

Empires have been conquering worlds for a long, long time and haven't had to do anything like you suggest, which is good because delaying processing time isn't good for anyone.

Sometimes an empty pop group gets conquered anyway before an attacker has had a reasonable chance to attack (in your specific case, you had several turns), but it's pretty rare. In those cases I offer to create a new pop group to give the attacker another chance to get troops down.

THEN WHY does the enemy have MY POP SEG AND MY PROBE TROOP? AND my allies NEWLY CREATED POP SEG????

[Gary Carpenter]

Bottom line is this, if the enemy probes your HW, SPAM GATK the following turns and you will capture his pop seg, and whatever troops he puts in it, usually an amount 3 times what you have, hopefully at least doubling your ground forces.

Another new trick, have an ally put a pop seg on your HW, Put something in it, and order number one after the skies of your HW are clear GATK, and take your allies pop seg and the enemies new one.

[Breoghan]

I don't know if I'm missing something here (...and I want to know for my OWN benefit!!!) - but as long as the attacker/invader is not interferred with on the turn immediately following the COLB and thus given time to prepare his troops, what's the problem with a defender attacking on subsequent turns? There has to be a point when it is ok for the defender to take the initiative, after all. It doesn't sound unreasonable that an attacker who is late in following through with his troop landings may be dropping them into an ambush that captures them. That's how things appear to work with the rest of the game (make an order out of sequence, or with overlapping priorities that use up resources or whatever, and the planned end product is not realized - with sometimes seriously annoying consequences).

This isn't a criticism Gary - I just don't understand what I've missed here. It certainly doesn't sound like 'cheating' to me so far.

[Gary Carpenter]

Since I think this is ANOTHER poor idea in the game i will provide a solution.

first PETE says he does not want GATK spamming or the pop seg to be invulnerable.

HAVE error check for GATK, that checks, in addition to whatever it checks NOW,

That there are NOT only troops in the pop seg
And if there are only troops in the pop seg, were they there at the end last turn, as compared to start of this turn.

These checks, would add, that if the troops were put into the pop seg that turn, the pop seg could not be taken, if they were still there at start of the next turn the pop seg could be taken. you would use a simple true false, compare.

so check are there troops in pop seg = true
were the troops there at end of last turn = true
Were the troops there at start of this turn = true

Then GATK takes pop seg or goes ahead

any False value, and pop SEG can not be taken.

ANOTHER solution would be for troops in pop segs to Automatically move to an army and defend on a GATK.

[Gary Carpenter]

Breoghan, on Oct 10 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

I don't know if I'm missing something here (...and I want to know for my OWN benefit!!!) - but as long as the attacker/invader is not interferred with on the turn immediately following the COLB and thus given time to prepare his troops, what's the problem with a defender attacking on subsequent turns? There has to be a point when it is ok for the defender to take the initiative, after all. It doesn't sound unreasonable that an attacker who is late in following through with his troop landings may be dropping them into an ambush that captures them. That's how things appear to work with the rest of the game (make an order out of sequence, or with overlapping priorities that use up resources or whatever, and the planned end product is not realized - with sometimes seriously annoying consequences).

This isn't a criticism Gary - I just don't understand what I've missed here. It certainly doesn't sound like 'cheating' to me so far.

the problem is that you can not probe the HW first, if you do, the next turn your pop seg can be taken IF the defender spams GATK, and you put troops down into the same pop seg for the final attack.

IF the troops AUTOMATICALLY moved out of the POP SEG into an army instead of SITTING there like Dolts, that would be fine. When the defender attacked there would be a battle, not just a gift of the troops to him.

[cestvel]

Gary Carpenter, on Oct 11 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

Breoghan, on Oct 10 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

I don't know if I'm missing something here (...and I want to know for my OWN benefit!!!) - but as long as the attacker/invader is not interferred with on the turn immediately following the COLB and thus given time to prepare his troops, what's the problem with a defender attacking on subsequent turns? There has to be a point when it is ok for the defender to take the initiative, after all. It doesn't sound unreasonable that an attacker who is late in following through with his troop landings may be dropping them into an ambush that captures them. That's how things appear to work with the rest of the game (make an order out of sequence, or with overlapping priorities that use up resources or whatever, and the planned end product is not realized - with sometimes seriously annoying consequences).

This isn't a criticism Gary - I just don't understand what I've missed here. It certainly doesn't sound like 'cheating' to me so far.

the problem is that you can not probe the HW first, if you do, the next turn your pop seg can be taken IF the defender spams GATK, and you put troops down into the same pop seg for the final attack.

IF the troops AUTOMATICALLY moved out of the POP SEG into an army instead of SITTING there like Dolts, that would be fine. When the defender attacked there would be a battle, not just a gift of the troops to him.

The latter is how it happened to me just a few turns back.
I was also rather pissed about this, as no Field Fortifications got build
At least the troops moved into the already created army and fought.
The popgroup was only two turns old because of a botched order (forgot to move into orbit).
I was not too happy with this as well. I understood Pete that way, that popgroups are rather save.
The way it is done now, I fear the numbers for popgroups will run out in the near future.


Marcus

[RTGPete]

Gary Carpenter, on Oct 10 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

THEN WHY does the enemy have MY POP SEG AND MY PROBE TROOP? AND my allies NEWLY CREATED POP SEG????

He doesn't. Please refer to my emails to you and your ally on these matters. I'm still waiting on your response to my offer of a probe (this would destroy the probe division, as expected), but perhaps you missed my several requests for an answer on that while you were busy posting here.

I'm far less interested in theorycrafting over what might or might not happen with pop groups than I am in solving actual problems. This particular issue has been solved. The bulk of the playerbase won't use a lot of COLB orders because they simply invade and take their target worlds right off rather than delay and lose production due to the lack of an attack. Probing is fine, but imposes a definite delay.

[Gary Carpenter]

RTGPete, on Oct 10 2009, 04:14 PM, said:

Gary Carpenter, on Oct 10 2009, 03:40 PM, said:

THEN WHY does the enemy have MY POP SEG AND MY PROBE TROOP? AND my allies NEWLY CREATED POP SEG????

He doesn't. Please refer to my emails to you and your ally on these matters. I'm still waiting on your response to my offer of a probe (this would destroy the probe division, as expected), but perhaps you missed my several requests for an answer on that while you were busy posting here.

I'm far less interested in theorycrafting over what might or might not happen with pop groups than I am in solving actual problems. This particular issue has been solved. The bulk of the playerbase won't use a lot of COLB orders because they simply invade and take their target worlds right off rather than delay and lose production due to the lack of an attack. Probing is fine, but imposes a definite delay.

Yes you said you would give me a new pop seg and put the ALLY pop seg back in his control.

NOW exactly how does that FIX the issue for future problems, those pesky code problems you just stated you are not interested IN?

[Gary Carpenter]

cestvel, on Oct 10 2009, 04:08 PM, said:

Gary Carpenter, on Oct 11 2009, 12:32 AM, said:

Breoghan, on Oct 10 2009, 03:24 PM, said:

I don't know if I'm missing something here (...and I want to know for my OWN benefit!!!) - but as long as the attacker/invader is not interferred with on the turn immediately following the COLB and thus given time to prepare his troops, what's the problem with a defender attacking on subsequent turns? There has to be a point when it is ok for the defender to take the initiative, after all. It doesn't sound unreasonable that an attacker who is late in following through with his troop landings may be dropping them into an ambush that captures them. That's how things appear to work with the rest of the game (make an order out of sequence, or with overlapping priorities that use up resources or whatever, and the planned end product is not realized - with sometimes seriously annoying consequences).

This isn't a criticism Gary - I just don't understand what I've missed here. It certainly doesn't sound like 'cheating' to me so far.

the problem is that you can not probe the HW first, if you do, the next turn your pop seg can be taken IF the defender spams GATK, and you put troops down into the same pop seg for the final attack.

IF the troops AUTOMATICALLY moved out of the POP SEG into an army instead of SITTING there like Dolts, that would be fine. When the defender attacked there would be a battle, not just a gift of the troops to him.

The latter is how it happened to me just a few turns back.
I was also rather pissed about this, as no Field Fortifications got build
At least the troops moved into the already created army and fought.
The popgroup was only two turns old because of a botched order (forgot to move into orbit).
I was not too happy with this as well. I understood Pete that way, that popgroups are rather save.
The way it is done now, I fear the numbers for popgroups will run out in the near future.


Marcus

IF the troops moved out and fought then PETE noticed it, and using hand moderation, created the army. PROBLEM, he has to notice it, COULD we have computer moderation please.

[Gary Carpenter]

bump

[Kurassier]

It is my understanding that when a COLB is done it is safe for the next turn. Why should it be safe after that? The defender should be allowed to attack pop groups.
If someone, does a COLB on turn one, lands troops and does a probe GATK on turn 2, I see no problem with the defender being able to GATK later on turn 2 and wipe out a poorly done beachead. The attacker should then have to 'start over' with a new COLB, etc. for future turns.

[Breoghan]

A few random, non-involved in the events thoughts on this...
Two things strike me about probe attacks (other than acknowledging the fact that people don't want to attack superior forces with their main attack if they can avoid it it, of course)...
1) Probes are a tactical choice, not a necessity of the game. It's the player's choice after weighing the risks involved. By definition, 'risks' can have negative outcomes as well as the positive ones.
2) Probes warn the opposition that you are on the ground - meaning, if you haven't followed through as you should and the opponent is on the ball, things can get sticky. It makes perfect sense for the defender to take out the landing field (the pop seg) if you know it's there (as it must be with a probing attack having taken place) and the attacker fumbles the ball with his orders (I don't know about others, but I'm pretty good at missing just one part of a sequence of orders - thankfully not yet costing me an army though!) I figure that it is the responsibility of the attacker to get it right, not the defender to allow the attacker any leeway.

One thing I will say though. I don't think the defender should get operational troops out of the deal. He's effectively captured the boxed up division's equipment, not the loyalty of the captured troops. I'd rather see the captured equipment assigned in its component parts to the pop seg's stockpile, ideally together with the soldiers involved disappearing from the game (probably in some prison camp somewhere).

Interesting discussion though.