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Interplanetary cargo gates


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#1 Hughestrog

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 03:08 AM

So, say you have access to interplanetary cargo gates, due to the large outlay in materials required for so many gates on worlds within a system, wouldn't cargo ships with high end engines (i.e. gravitic thruster or higher) be more efficient? Even with the initial use of orders to set-up the cargo run?

The only advantage I could see would be the reduced exposure of cargo ships to enemy warships.

Any thoughts by the folk who use them?
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#2 TErnest

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 08:45 AM

So, say you have access to interplanetary cargo gates, due to the large outlay in materials required for so many gates on worlds within a system, wouldn't cargo ships with high end engines (i.e. gravitic thruster or higher) be more efficient? Even with the initial use of orders to set-up the cargo run?

The only advantage I could see would be the reduced exposure of cargo ships to enemy warships.

Any thoughts by the folk who use them?



All of your obeservations are correct. But in my experience, the fact that cargo gates cannot be as easily interdicted is an advantage that should not be underestimated in some situations. (Of course, by the time you need it, it is probably too late to set it up.)

It is also easier to hide all your major home system assets (including the hw itself) via cloaking tech if you do not have a lot of frieghters running arround, all using one particular planet as the hub. Dead give away.

Also of note is the fact that while ships can be more efficient in terms of manufacturing capacity, cargo gates can be more efficient in terms of orders, especially in times of change.

Consider. Which would be easier when planning to expand a mining colony after a huge ICE drop? Building a new convoy route (or expanding the old) to haul in more Colonists, ACM, ICM, CM, Adv. Black Market Goods, Impr. Pharm., various Textiles, etc. OR to issue a single TR order? How many turns would it take the convoy route to get the colony up to its new target capacity?

And what about the NEXT time you want to expand the colony?

Interesting thing about efficiency. It is only important when the target resource is in short supply. For most empires, once they have hit the max levels of Planetary Cargo Gates, the limitations of manufacturing capacity tend not to be as important as they once were. They can pay for a couple of cargo gates out of petty cash. (Or petty ACM if you like.) At that point, efficiency of orders, and efficiency of player effort, start to become much more important.

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#3 rfouasnon

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 09:26 AM

Then also consider the sheer masses of transports you would need to transport the materials . The 5 million ACM needed for one universal gate pales in comparison to the resources to build the transports in the first place . The gates are an elegant solution to transporting goods from point A to point B....
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#4 TErnest

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 08:12 AM

Then also consider the sheer masses of transports you would need to transport the materials . The 5 million ACM needed for one universal gate pales in comparison to the resources to build the transports in the first place . The gates are an elegant solution to transporting goods from point A to point B....



Actually, his original point is very valid. High end engines can produce ships that are capable of transfering several hundreds times their mass per turn for in-system cargo runs. So, Planetary Cargo gates do not actually become more efficient than high end freighters (in terms of manufacturing cost) until planetary mining output reaches the gigaton per turn range or so.

Let's say one were to use the industrial capacity for those 5E6 ACM (and the CM for a few Hydroelectric Power Plants) to build a 3 Mega-ton freighter with 50% of its mass in Mk III Total Conversion Engines, 50% Cargo Bays. That ship would be able to transport 1.2E9 cargo each turn. Higher tech engines could move even more, naturally.

Granted, there players out there with mining planets capable of that kind of output. For them at least, Planetary Cargo Gates are the more efficient buy.


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#5 cestvel

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 10:50 AM

You may add the equivalent of another 5.000.000 Cargo Bays, as you need these to set up the gate in the first place.

TRs to non PG holging popgroups is finally fixed.

#6 Moonshadow

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 02:56 PM

Then also consider the sheer masses of transports you would need to transport the materials . The 5 million ACM needed for one universal gate pales in comparison to the resources to build the transports in the first place . The gates are an elegant solution to transporting goods from point A to point B....



As long as after you have setup the network the GM does not come along and change the Loss rates.

Also, the gates should be considered a defense.
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#7 rfouasnon

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Posted 17 September 2010 - 06:23 PM

Research extends the range of the gates considerably , and also brings the loss rates down quite effectively . Also , if you have billions of units of materials in stockpiles , a 25 % loss rate means little , you simply push enough materials to compensate for the gate tax . I am supremely happy with my gates , even with the gate tax . If the loss rate is too high , simply build a gate between the two gates....the effort to do that for a well managed position is insignificant .
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#8 Moonshadow

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 04:46 PM

Research extends the range of the gates considerably , and also brings the loss rates down quite effectively . Also , if you have billions of units of materials in stockpiles , a 25 % loss rate means little , you simply push enough materials to compensate for the gate tax . I am supremely happy with my gates , even with the gate tax . If the loss rate is too high , simply build a gate between the two gates....the effort to do that for a well managed position is insignificant .



I have connected HW's that have 100 percent loss. According to Pete, worlds one jump away could have 100 percent loss. This caused problems.

Now a better solution would of been to follow the Character transfer example and simply make gates only work if you have a surveyed path to that world. As it is now I do have one ally that is NOT connected to me that I can gate stuff to at a little over 50 percent loss.
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We're beggars and blighters, ne'er-do-well cads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
Aye, but we're loved by our mommies and dads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

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#9 rfouasnon

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 05:06 PM

If Pete actually has it set up to where a world one jump away can have 100% gate loss , then that is wrong....I definitely agree on that . I have not seen an example like that , though .
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#10 cestvel

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 01:09 AM

Please keep in mind, that gate tax is calculated from the real 3-D coordinates. Though you might find an awesome class H WP, that
is only one warp to a very distant system. Having your Mk I UGs 100% loss rates for that vast distance.

#11 Moonshadow

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Posted 22 September 2010 - 03:06 PM

Please keep in mind, that gate tax is calculated from the real 3-D coordinates. Though you might find an awesome class H WP, that
is only one warp to a very distant system. Having your Mk I UGs 100% loss rates for that vast distance.



And 100 percent for your mk 6 gates also is possible
Yo ho, yo ho, a pirate's life for me.
We're beggars and blighters, ne'er-do-well cads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.
Aye, but we're loved by our mommies and dads,
Drink up, me 'earties, yo ho.

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#12 hobknob

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 02:42 PM

100% loss is possible with any tech level. There appears to bet a very sharp curve to the gate tax. I have a bunch of gates with the following losses

A to B - 6%
B to C - 7%
A to C - 100%

I don't really have any gates that are much higher than 30% as the losses seem to jump straight to 100%. So, HW to near HW with warp distance of 10 or less all seem to have a reasonable loss rate of 20% less. Much beyond that and the losses seem to jump to the 100% without stopping at the intermediate numbers.

It seems to me that there is a hard and fast distance factor that shifts you into the 100% loss category, no matter your tech level.

So, if your one hop HW to HW connection is beyond that limit then you will always be hosed. I would recommend trying intermediate routing. It takes more resources, but it is certainly doable and with XTR's you can automate most of your transfers.

good luck!
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#13 Hughestrog

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:09 AM

So, is it possible to build two gates in separate pop groups in the same turn, then conduct a TR order?

Anyone tried this?
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#14 cestvel

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:36 AM

So, is it possible to build two gates in separate pop groups in the same turn, then conduct a TR order?

Anyone tried this?


Yeah, works just fine. I do it all the time. They do not need any tempering by Pete.
It even works with Wormhole Generators if Pete is in a good mood ;)




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