16 replies to this topic

[T'Aleen Empire]

Hello folks,


Ok this is more "fluff" or rather RPG side of things, but what IC should we consider to be the actual time between turns. I kinda consider a turn reesult as being a 'State of the Empire' report, and should it be thought of as being every two weeks as our turns run or should we consider it to be some other time element? Now part of the reason for asking is first the RPG fluff side of things, and something to do with character aging and loss from old age.

Now having been playing now since game one, it has been what 44+ turns now. If we're to just consider it as 44 x 2wks = 88 weeks ...aka...22 months...almost two years. Now I find when thinking about the tech developement and etc, that seems a bit fast. So if we were to say 44 turns were 1 month each, then that would be like 3.6 years. To me that would seem a more reasonable time frame, but maybe still a bit fast.

I don't know, what do the rest of you think?

[Emanon]

Are we really discovering new tech or are we just rediscovering techology that we once had???

Long
Live
Emanon

[WKE235]

Lets try it from this point of view.

You use Mk I Nuclear Engines to move in the home system. You always have 2 AP. Using those AP you can move from world 1 of the system to a warp point about 2500 AU from the star, and then back, all in one turn.

Now, at the speed of light, a 2500 AU round trip would be approximately 30 days (this is rough, the scientists out there can calc it to 4 decimal points if they would like and correct me). The Jump Drives only work in the presence of warp points, and the ships lack anything that could be called a FTL drive. So every turn has to be at least 30 days time.

Now, really, is that one little Mk I Nuclear Engine going to get that 100,000 ton ship up to light speed? No. So, lets be very optimistic and say 1/2 light speed. So now the turn is 60 days.

Wait a minute, you could move from a 2500 AU warp point to another 2500 or so distance warp point in one AP. And these points could be opposite each other in the system. 2500 AU in the galactic south direction for one, 2500 AU in the galactic north for the other. So the round trip is now 5000 AU or twice as far. Now the 60 days is up to 120 days. And that's at 1/2 light speed if you can squeeze it from one Mk I Nuclear engine.

Lets add in Population growth. In total I have around 550,000 POP (I added the big numbers only real fast, so I could be off a bit). Growth is around 550 per turn, or .1%. Now, for an advanced society, that's a pretty good number. Several nations in Western Europe have or are approaching negative pop growth now. The US population only continues to grow due to immigration, with projected growth to average .6% per year over the next 50 years. Now, iIf each turn was 120 days (four months) then overall pop growth would be about .3% per "year". That fits pretty well.

SO .. by using numbers of my choosing, doing the math I wanted, and applying the rules I choose, I decree each turn to take approximately 4 months of "realtime".

Of course this does nothing to explain why it takes so much effort to discover how to create Razor Wire or Electric Fences. :lol: That's right, it took a group of brilliant scientists 3 turns (1 year) to design, test, and build the first Nuclear Transwarp Drive. But stick them in a room with some metal and wire, and darn it all if they don't keep killing themselves trying to build an electric fence.

[Hughestrog]

WKE235, on Jun 16 2004, 05:17 PM, said:

Of course this does nothing to explain why it takes so much effort to discover how to create Razor Wire or Electric Fences. :lol: That's right, it took a group of brilliant scientists 3 turns (1 year) to design, test, and build the first Nuclear Transwarp Drive. But stick them in a room with some metal and wire, and darn it all if they don't keep killing themselves trying to build an electric fence.

Scientists can be funny like that.

[Eldred]

I don't know why, but I have always assumed that each turn is equivalent to approximately 1 earth year. Any less and the research periods for the techs get ridiculously short (having regard to the real world - e.g. it has taken NASA upwards of 30 years to develop anything like a reliable re-usable launch vehicle, and it will probably take them the best part of 100 to develop a fusion drive). The idea that such things might be accomplished in a matter of months doesn't really stand up.

Also I look on my turns as an annual report. This makes sense with a yearly population census being taken and returning details of growth and attrition. Also how long do you think it would take to DISM an instalation then CON something else out of the same CMs?

[Ur Lord Tedric]

For my part I could certainly be happy with a turn to a year, but actually I would probably settle on a turn = six months to match some of the growths/gains/efforts given....

Mx

[Sakarissa]

Quote
e.g. it has taken NASA upwards of 30 years to develop anything like a reliable re-usable launch vehicle
Unquote

Silly Eldred, you're assuming that NASA research is actually efficient and continuous. It's not. It's driven 90% by politics so it is inherintly inefficient. There is quicker and efficient research being done by independents and private corporations.

Sakarissa

[ali-t-akua]

Quote

SO .. by using numbers of my choosing, doing the math I wanted, and applying the rules I choose, I decree each turn to take approximately 4 months of "realtime".

Of course you have assumed that your ships move at 0.5c. What happens when you develop the next generation of "conventional" Engines (vs. Jump/TW Drives) and you can more than double the APs. Does that mean your ships are now moving at more than the speed of light?

[T'Aleen Empire]

Ok I guess everyone is assuming that FTL is Jump Drives, BUT in Old Traveller which it would seem SNROTE has a heavy base in....Jump Drives took the ship into another dimension and all that jazz. So you were NOT travelling in real space but in another dimension of sorts.

Actually "Jump Space" is something that Russ/Pete need to define for this game and how they see it. Jump Drive is NOT Warp speed...it is more like Trans Warp from Star Trek...but slightly different.

We need the GM's point of view on this issue...

[Eldred]

Sakarissa, on Jun 17 2004, 01:50 PM, said:

Quote
e.g. it has taken NASA upwards of 30 years to develop anything like a reliable re-usable launch vehicle
Unquote

Silly Eldred, you're assuming that NASA research is actually efficient and continuous. It's not. It's driven 90% by politics so it is inherintly inefficient. There is quicker and efficient research being done by independents and private corporations.

Sakarissa 

Fair point, bad example on my part! I was merely trying to make the point that if a standard item (eg MkII Nuclear Engine) takes 12 turns to research then I find equating this to 12 years is much more believable than equating it to 12 months or 24 months for example.

That said, I must admit that my thinking on this is based from a blinkered earthlings perspective and who is to say that an advanced alien empire couldn't do it much quicker.

Hmmm....12 years to get Razor Wire does seem a bit on the steep side now I come to think of it

[ShadowKitsune]

Jump Drives are our FTL travel mechanism.

There are a number of potential sources (fiction, film, TV, etc.) that RTG could have used for the Jump Drive technology in SN:ROTE.

Does it really matter what the turn time frame is?

If we start looking at it too close, you start finding 'flaws' in the 'logic'. A prime example would be the DIP action. What does the ratio of thrust to mass have to do with an individual's ability to communicate with another individual (or group of peoples)? Why are GEO and PMAP two seperate orders? Can you actually discern the geologic potential of the planet without conducting a planetary surface survey?

Now, OTOH, if we as a community are just trying to establish a 'time frame' per turn for metagaming RP/Fiction, I don't have a problem with that.

M2CW,

-SK

[WKE235]

ali-t-akua, on Jun 17 2004, 01:21 PM, said:

Quote

SO .. by using numbers of my choosing, doing the math I wanted, and applying the rules I choose, I decree each turn to take approximately 4 months of "realtime".

Of course you have assumed that your ships move at 0.5c. What happens when you develop the next generation of "conventional" Engines (vs. Jump/TW Drives) and you can more than double the APs. Does that mean your ships are now moving at more than the speed of light?

Well, I tried to think about this from the other end. Lets say you had Mk I Total Conversion engines with (a big guess based on how things keep doubling) around 1,000,000 thrust per engine, still at 100 tons per engine. You could in theory create a 9000 to 10000 AP ship. It's just thrust, not an FTL drive. But lets say this is so powerful you get close to light speed. So you could, in theory, transit 5000 AU (or 60 light days) 10,000 times. If this is the case, you could say each turn represents 600,000 days or 1643 years.

And this would mean at game start with only 2 AP ships, you can only go 1/5000 light speed until you reach a jump point.

Of course, moving 10000 times in one turn (total cost = $1250) is absurd (unless your Donald Trump and you feel like it).

Based on that, I came at this from the other direction (slow 2 AP ships), got a number I wanted, and then said forget the rest, as the whole thing doesn't make sense anyway. Figure out the time frame you want, use it, and be happy.

[EternusIV]

Well - my opinion on NASA.....there is a huge gap between research and funding. The Space Program could be amazing if NASA took more risks with the research ideas that have been around for a long time. Sadly, our government bureaucracy is too huge. I predict that a nation with more commitment and less governmental regulations will make the next generation of strides for human space exploration....I don't see it happening in the US anytime soon.



I like to put 2 years per turn for the RPG-time scale.

[ali-t-akua]

I had one other thought on this. It is not very well thought through but here goes anyway.

We could assume that conventional drives allow us to go the speed of light as well as the jump drives. Its just that the conventional drives only allow us to go intrastellar due to their fuel source (some form of matter or energy readily available within the stellar system like solar wind particles) whereas the jump engines because they travel interstellar distances require on board fuel to be carried. Also, since (to my knowledge at this point) they require travel through wormholes, these engines are set up to provide that access to that means of travel.

One question WKE, how did you arrive at the 2500 AU distance for Warp Points?

[EternusIV]

(I think he's basing it off the fact that in-game AU distances to warp points are sometimes 2500 AU from the center of the sun....hey - timing oculd be off and you would be on the other side of teh sun than the warp point at launch etc.....)

5,000 AU is about 747,992,750,000,000 meters.

C=3*10^8 m/s

So...punch in a few things....approximately 0.08 years to travel 5000 AU at a constant speed of light.

Space thrust is a tricky deal depending on tonnage and burn control of your spacecraft. Ion engines, fusion engines and typical thrust engines all vary in terms of fuel efficiency, initial speed and impulse. (Think F=ma in space...conservation of momentum....it really depends on your impulse, tonnage and fuel efficiency.) If you think of an ion engine....it takes forever to 'warm up' for a large craft....but once it gets going its WAY faster than chemical accelerated engines. Its a tradeoff between sustained speed and the need for initial acceleration.

Fusion engines bring the best of both worlds (theoretically) with impulses in the range 130,000s. (1 lb of fuel can propel 1 lb for 130,000s)

I think a 2-year cycle to wait for a launch to a particularly distnat WP is reasonable...hell...I don't want to really think about it too much right now (too much binary star data on my other spreadsheet right now)

Yeah I'm too busy to calculate how 'long' it would take for a 1,000 ton ship to travel back and forth between a WP 2500 AU away from Earth (ignoring earth-based trajectory models) But I couldn't resist babbling about it there for a minute or two.

If I had to guess, using your line of thinking...geez, if its fusion....probably less than a few months round trip??

If anybody out there wants to jam the numbers out, I'd be happy to see em.