14 replies to this topic

[Kevin.C]

Hi guys,

I'm trying to figure out the relative differences in the lifeform bonuses.

For example, I've got a potential design which has a CB of 13, a SCB of 1, a GCB of 1, and a DM of 21. I've got another with a CB of 11, a SCB of 3, a GCB of 7, and a DM of 11. I'm trying to decide which of these (among others) has a best overall value.

What does, for example, the difference equate to in the SCB case? Does it mean that the former design is capable of dishing out twice the damage that a race with an SCB of 0 is capable of? And therefore the race with an SCB of 3 would be cable of dishing out 4 times the damage?

Or does it mean that the race with the SCB of 1 is just capable of dishing out one *percent* more than normal?

And what of the DM? Is the race with a DM of 21 virtually indestructible in both ground and space combat? Or is he just a little tougher than the race with a DM of 11?

Thoroughly confused,
Kevin

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

To be honest, we don't know. No one, with the exception of Pete and Russ, knows.
In fact, it's been strongly hinted that the +s aren't even equal. So, while a ++ is obviously better than a +, one ++ might still be vastly batter than a different ++.
In RB, for example, Longevity (+) adds more to your research rate than any single + from Intelligence or Sensors.

[ali-t-akua]

As for which of your two potential designs is better, it depends on what strategy you wish to pursue. If you plan on raping and pillaging right from the start you will want a different set of bonuses then if you plan to play turtle and focus on economy and colonization .

[ShadowKitsune]

I'm sure that some multiplayer Alliance (e.g. Phoenix Arisen) may have a rough estimate of what each plus (+) or minus (-) is worth in each category. I, personally, have no hard numbers. What I can tell you is that the bonuses are relative within each category, but not across categories (as Krelnett has previously stated). For example, for every plus (+) you gain in SB for having High Temperature Tolerance would be offset for every minus (-) you lose in SB for being Radiation Sensitive. However, the single plus (+) for having Excellent Sensory is not necessarily equal to the plus (+) your race would gain from having Excellent Constitution. The only thing that is actually equivalent is point cost. According to Pete, everything that has the same cost should give you the same level of edge in the game. For example -- Omnivorous Plus, Excellent Reproduction, Superior Tunneling Ability and class 4 ESP should all garner you the same 200 points worth of relative advantage.

You really can't min/max racial design for two reasons:

1. Your Homeworld is assigned by the Laws of Random Chance. So having the advantage of High Temperature Tolerance, which gives you a bonus to Colonizing worlds with mean temperatures much higher than your Homeworld, may be offset because your Homeworld has a mean temperature of 400 degrees K. Flip side, you could have the same advantage and end up on a mid-range (temperature wise) Terrestrial homeworld and thus your race finds Hot Terrestrial planets as well as Terrestrial planets just fine for colonization. On a side note, your region of space may be amazingly devoid of planets that you can colonize.

2. There are no "keys" to victory. A Race of Mammals that have Mighty Strength, Class 3 Regeneration and Dextrous Agility are going to pulverize a race of Amphibians with Phenomenal Intelligence, Phenomenal Sensory Perception and Long Life in any kind of stand-up ground fight. However, the "Brain Frogs" have the edge when it comes to Research and Exploration. It may take 100 "Brain Frogs" to kill a single proto-Wolverine™, but hopefully the Frogs are going to be bringing guns to the proverbial knife fight.

I am of the opinion that if you build a racial concept you like, it's a good design. Just remember to play to your strengths and not your opponents. And above all, remember to have fun!

-SK

[hobknob]

The more bonus you have the better off you are. For me there are a couple of areas that are more important than other ares so I would push for a higher bonus in those areas. In the end though, it is all about being happy with what you chose and the luck of the start up position.

If you wnat to be a colonizer and start on a world with a temp of 450 I would probably reroll and try again. Same thing goes for a pseudo colonizer in a system without planets to colonize.

The start up is everything in my book.

[Kevin.C]

hobknob, on Jan 3 2005, 01:56 PM, said:

If you wnat to be a colonizer and start on a world with a temp of 450 I would probably reroll and try again.  Same thing goes for a pseudo colonizer in a system without planets to colonize. 

The start up is everything in my book.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks for all the help, guys.

Hobknob, you bring up an interesting point. Is it a common practice to send in several setups of identical races at the same time so you can just pick whichever Homeworld is best?

Kevin

[PhaseDragon]

Pete is trying to stop the multiple set-up idea for those of you thinking about that route. I set up a couple empires at the same time and was questioned as to why considering I already have other empires. He assumed that I was going to drop one of them and I had to reassure him that I would play both before he would set them both up.

[hobknob]

I suppose it all depends on how you look at it. Since the setup is so important for everything I would want a good one. Some that I have seen are just non-starters in my book so I would rather start 2-3 and take my pick. If RTG isn't going to allow that then I would likely just have to do it sequentially. I can't really see too much of a problem unless Pete is assuming you are dropping them to make for easy conquests later. After all each setup costs $$ and RTG is in it to make $$.

After playing for over 2 years I have to say that I would have rerolled 2 of my positions based on poor setups, if I had known better. Unfortunately it took me a year to figure out how bad off I was.

Pete will point out I am sure that any position is viable and he is right, but if you are going to stick with it for the long haul you should at least be happy with what you start with.

[Krysia's Krusader]

How about the SB bonuses?

Does any one know which apply to diplomacy, and which apply to exploration?

[ali-t-akua]

Krysia's Krusader, on Oct 30 2005, 12:04 PM, said:

How about the SB bonuses?

Does any one know which apply to diplomacy, and which apply to exploration?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think you can make some educated guesses about which will apply to Exploration and Diplomacy but I don't know for sure how all of the items will break out. On the other hand, when you get your turn, at the top is a bar chart showing your various bonuses and Exploration and Diplomacy are included.

[WKE235]

Just a couple of notes on the racial choices

1) Selecting Class 4 Telepath, ESP, or Telekinetic just do not seem worth the points. If you have Class 1 in a talent, you can research the higher classes (though this can take some time). The only thing we've seen the talents give in a concrete manner is access to Mass Destruction Devices, and nothing else. Sure that may give you some type of hidden bonuses we do not know of, and maybe at higher levels something nice will open up. But the points are far better saved for SRP and tech advances.

2) RB +'s are very weak, so you can't overpower you opponents with R&D from a racial design. So trying to max RB bonuses is a fools errand and waste of points. You get far more in increases from Sci Breakthroughs eventually simply by selecting your govermental styles in areas of Science (to generate lots of scientists).

3) Along this lines, while we do not know what the +'s do for Intelligence choices, it seems very clear that the high end choices a vastly over priced for any bonuses you may get. Compare Phenom Intelligence to Phenom Sensory and you'll see. Unless those Intel +'s are double those of the Sensory, the price is very steep for what is known. (Of course you may be getting some hidden bonus to make it worth it, but, its doubtful). Heck, even the benefits of Sensory are questionable (but at least more cost effective).

4) The boosts in reproduction rate and related colony bonus are also seemingly overpriced. You can get far better CB + other bonuses to boot by selecting something like Radiation Tolerant + Low Gravity Tolerant for only a slight increase in spent points. Advances like Imperial Medical Centers can be used to boost growth on colonies in the future, and the overall increase just seem so small compared to your overall pop base.

Finally .. two more things.

( a ) I have found that in general -'s are always stronger than a corresponding +. IE .. in all cases of getting a racial + and - .. or ++ and -- ... the net result has been a negative stat that I know of. Perhaps someone has an example to show this is not the case always? But it does seem the most common.

( b ) It is true that you can't min/max the design to a "Best" type. But you can max it to support the style of play you wish to engage, but there is no best design. The whole "According to Pete, everything that has the same cost should give you the same level of edge in the game" statement is not true. The Phenom Intel vs Phenom Sensory is the primary proof of that. And when have you ever heard of a game being released with balance (look at all the online game and seemingly regular nerfing they do to try and balance what was supposedly a balanced game). So decide how you want to play, select options to support that, and watch the costs. You'll probably end up doing OK.

[General Miles Avatar]

WKE235, on Oct 30 2005, 11:15 PM, said:

Just a couple of notes on the racial choices

1)  Selecting Class 4 Telepath, ESP, or Telekinetic just do not seem worth the points.  If you have Class 1 in a talent, you can research the higher classes (though this can take some time).  The only thing we've seen the talents give in a concrete manner is access to Mass Destruction Devices, and nothing else.  Sure that may give you some type of hidden bonuses we do not know of, and maybe at higher levels something nice will open up.  But the points are far better saved for SRP and tech advances. 

2)  RB +'s are very weak, so you can't overpower you opponents with R&D from a racial design.  So trying to max RB bonuses is a fools errand and waste of points.  You get far more in increases from Sci Breakthroughs eventually simply by selecting your govermental styles in areas of Science (to generate lots of scientists). 

3)  Along this lines, while we do not know what the +'s do for Intelligence choices, it seems very clear that the high end choices a vastly over priced for any bonuses you may get.  Compare Phenom Intelligence to Phenom Sensory and you'll see.  Unless those Intel +'s are double those of the Sensory, the price is very steep for what is known.  (Of course you may be getting some hidden bonus to make it worth it, but, its doubtful).  Heck, even the benefits of Sensory are questionable (but at least more cost effective). 

4)  The boosts in reproduction rate and related colony bonus are also seemingly overpriced.  You can get far better CB + other bonuses to boot by selecting something like Radiation Tolerant + Low Gravity Tolerant for only a slight increase in spent points.  Advances like Imperial Medical Centers can be used to boost growth on colonies in the future, and the overall increase just seem so small compared to your overall pop base.

Finally ..  two more things.

( a )  I have found that in general -'s are always stronger than a corresponding +.  IE .. in all cases of getting a racial + and - .. or ++ and --  ... the net result has been a negative stat that I know of.  Perhaps someone has an example to show this is not the case always?  But it does seem the most common. 

( b )  It is true that you can't min/max the design to a "Best" type.  But you can max it to support the style of play you wish to engage, but there is no best design.  The whole "According to Pete, everything that has the same cost should give you the same level of edge in the game" statement is not true.  The Phenom Intel vs Phenom Sensory is the primary proof of that.  And when have you ever heard of a game being released with balance (look at all the online game and seemingly regular nerfing they do to try and balance what was supposedly a balanced game).  So decide how you want to play, select options to support that, and watch the costs.  You'll probably end up doing OK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Agreed. Just think up a race you would like to play and run with it. IN the end
if your having fun your getting your monies worth.

[hobknob]

I suppose I will have to disagree with WKE on this issue on a few points.

I think that one of the best buys you can make is that of growth rate. If you are a colonizer this makes you grow faster for more pop to colonize with and if you aren't then you grow your HW pop. In addition it is also an attrition offset. Compared to the other possible attrition solution this one is always on and you get something for it every turn. The other items you can buy are not as valuable IMHO except for natural chemical exchanger.

I know for a fact that a lifeform with max RB and no extra points to spend will surpass a lifeform with no RB and 500 points to spend in about 2 years. Sooner, if you make better tech choices and utilize some judicious multiple RC assignments. I run both and my max RB position surpasses the other variety in all aspects save 1 tech line.

As far as +'s and -'s go, I think the evidence supports that notion that they are the equivalent within the same attribute. That is to say that for intelligence +'s are all equally valued while they may not be comparable with Sensory +'s.


Just my counterpoint to the previous comments.

I also can't stress enough that any lifeform is a winner and if you are having fun with it, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with the design.

[Lord Uriel]

I would suggest that you do not take a negative in reproduction. It limits your colonization aand industrial ability.

Lord Uriel

[ShadowKitsune]

I have to concur with Lord Uriel with regard to colonization handicaps - anything that generates a (-) towards Colonization Bonus (CB) - just don't do it.

If you want a researching/exploration oriented Empire, I would recommend taking Piratic Technocracy with a Speicalty in Science. That combination tends to vomit out a lot of Explorer and Scientist characters. Of course, you get next to zero in the way of Diplomat characters. (All things come with a price.)

If you examine the PDF document that Pete authored about 18 months ago concerning the REVO Order and Government types, you can pick a style of government to your liking (and style of play).

I've already made my comments concerning psychic abilities. (Short Form: Buy them later.)

To paraphrase Shakespeare: "To Thine Own Race Be True."

-SK