The rules on airdrops appear to be silent on weather the ground force making the attack could have performed a Primary Mission prior to making the Air Asssault.

Simply put my question is can a airborne force move to an airbase (using up its primary mission order for the turn) and then be part of an airborne assault?

I find its pretty risky to leave and AIR 40 regiment wiating at an Airbase as the only defender so that it can then make an airborne assault the next turn. If I leave a larger force gaurding the airbase then I have to do a lot of MGFS orders to move out the defenders and then later move someother ones back after the airdrop.

Surely their are better tactics to defend an airbase AND be able to make airdrops every turn. What ae those tactics?

I'm afraid that the air assault does constitute a primary for both ground force and air force so you can't move a force into a city then execute an air assault mission with that force later in the turn. The ground force you are using in the assault would have to begin the turn in the city where your air force is based.

You could have a larger force in that city of course then execute a MGFS to move units out (leaving just the units you are using in the air assault) prior to the air mission. The MGFS order only constitutes a primary mission for the units actually moving so the units left behind could participate in the subsequent air assault.

That would leave the city with no ground force of course unless you subsequently move other units back into the city (it would have to be different units from the ones that moved in the MGFS previously).

If you are planning on regular air assault ops then you would fly the mission, then MGF/MGFS another airborne unit(s) into place for next turn. Build up the LDBs to high levels to guard against the enemy trying to knock out the airbase with his own air assault.

Russ

I have a question on the capacity of air transports. The rating of the Air Transports are based on optimum range to be (by) 20% of the groups combat radius. Therefore if the maximum combat radius of the transports was 10 the units could carry the rated capacity 2 movement points? How much could it carry at its maximum combat radius of 10? 20% of it's rated capacity? Does the experience level of the planes play a factor?
Don

Don,

Experience levels of the planes are a factor in the transportrating. See the experience modifiers in the rules book.

Also, the presence of a general on the airbase has a positive effect on the transport rating.

In the rules is a formula to calculate a rating for a give range. This formula also applies for transport-rating.

Hope this helps.

Norbert

Of course you could make 2 defending armies, one in city A with the airbase, and one in city B. In turn 1 you MGFS all non-airborne units to city C, do an airborne assault with the remaing division/regiment and move the army from city B into city A. You then build an airborne division/regiment in city C. In turn 2 you MGFS all non-airborne units from city A to city B, do an airborne assault with the division that was left behind, move the army from city C to city A, and build another division in city B. That way you always have an army in city A, and you can do an airborne assault every turn. Of course, it requires 2 armies instead of one, but I think it's the only way to do it.

Hope it made sense to you all....

Yep, made sense to me. You have to keep your armies in rotation and have the FUEL and/or Rail Capacity available to keep them moving. I find it very frustrating at times when I want to launch multiple Air Drops from a single Air Base because of the 1 Army/City limitation. That would be a feature I would like in any Victory! upgrade, the ability to have multiple "armies" in a City or Province.

-SK

No!
Makes no sense to me. The first part of an Airborne Assault should be like a MGFS-order.
So, regardless of the size of the army force at the airbase you can give an OMA AA order. The airdrop-force splits off from the parent force (which allows for multiple air drops since the parent force has not executed any mission at all)
The second part of the Airborne Assault remains the same.
The format of the order should be something like this:

OMA, AA, Airforce-id, Inactive Armyforce-id, Airborne-Division-1, ...etc, Day/Night, Loc#1, ...etc.

- The location of the Airforce should determine the id of the parent force -

This prevents the ridiculous moving around of armyforces or leaving your airbase undefended. It's also a relatively cheap change. Both the OMA AA & the MGFS orders already exist. I hope these minor changes can be implemented quickly.

(By the way, the same goes for Amphibious Assaults, Embark Army Force, Air Drop Troops & Air Evacuate Troops)

Silverwing

Well, I meant that Hamish's answer made sense to me, not that the continuous 'shuffle' did. Actually, if you could have multiple armies in the same city, you could just use the Reorganize Ground [RG] Order, like you can with Armies onboard Naval Transports.

My only concern with your modification, Silverwing, is that it reduces the 'range' you can fly the missing proportionally to the number of Air Assault capable units you're using, since there is a maximum number of variable 'spaces' in the OMA orders (e.g. a 'double' orders worth). I don't think anybody is doing massively long drops with huge amounts (ala Market Garden).

FWIW,
-SK

Ah then let me introduce you to the Skymaster. With 25 of these babies anything and everything is possible.

Please explaine Predator - have you performed large airdrops, what was it like

ShadowKitsune,

Of course, I don't know on what kind of grand scale you play Victory!,
but I've looked at my own orders of previous games and not a single OMA AA or OMN AA would have led to a double order when my proposed changes would have been implemented.

(Your alternative would always require an extra order (a RG-order))

But let's not quibble about details.
We, players, should unite and ask, beg, demand or plead RTG to make these minor changes to the system. To summarize:

I don't want the ridiculous moving around of armies, I don't want to leave my airbases/ports undefended.
And I don't give a #@!$ how it's been done.

Silverwing

I've been over this with Russ (in a private mail, or on the forum, I don't remember) and if I recall correctly, it's a coding issue. This cannot be fixed without rewriting a significant portion of the Victory! game engine which is just not an option at this point. We will all have to wait for the long awaited (but as Russ keeps assuring me, still coming) Victory! 2 project.

Hamish

If the goal is to do an air assault every turn and not leave your base undefended, you don't need to go through all of this force switching. What I do is have the air groups in the air base city. Send them out on the air asssault, then bring in more troops to drop for the next turn. If your enemy were to try an air assault on your city, the new troops would defend.

[quote=coothunter,Jan 25 2006, 02:45 PM]
the new troops would defend.

[quote]


The new troops rarely defend against the stack of Ju-88's that obliviate the defenders allowing a solitary enemy Air 40 to capture your airbase.


Two signifigant issues for VIC II:

1. Can airpower BY ITSELF eliminate all defenders? I say NO the infantry componet of a division is reasonably resistant to air attack (the troops are burrowed deep into cellars and foxholes). Conversely the Armoured portion of a division is extremely vulnerable to air attack. The solutuion is to let the air attacks destroy a divisons offensive potential but not its entire defensive potential.


2. The use of paratroopers on suicide missions is historically and ethically not realsitic. No actual paratroop drop ever occured during WW II that did not allow for the relief or extraction of the airborne unit within a few weeks.

Solution: Allow no airdrop unless within 2 provinces of friendly troops or a coastal province or city. I realize this is a coding nigtmare but name one historical airdrop that does not fit the criteria I have described?

The rules for "suicide" airdrops is already very well covered with the use of Rangers and appears quite realistic.


Would not these two rules alone solve your issues about defending an airbase?

[quote=Warmaster,Jan 25 2006, 02:54 PM]
[quote=coothunter,Jan 25 2006, 02:45 PM]
the new troops would defend.

[quote]


The new troops rarely defend against the stack of Ju-88's that obliviate the defenders allowing a solitary enemy Air 40 to capture your airbase.


[/quote]


If you are going up against stacks of Ju-88s, the air base is in trouble anyway.

It makes no sense to change the airdrop rules only to protect airbases or weakly defended cities. Build some LDBs and a fortification and nobody will attack your airbase. Building transporters is already extremely expensive we need not to reduce the power of air assaults. The defenders should simply use LDBs. It is the choice of the attacking player if he will waste his paratroopers or not and it is the choice of the defender too to be prepared for an air assault.

The only way to defend your airbase with transports is to use large amounts of ldb's so that after your ground troops are bombed out you still have a great defense against enemy airdrops. Since it usually takes awhile to build up a decent force of transports you should have plenty of time to build up enough ldb's to get the job done adequately. As with any other part of this game it is all about planning ahead.



The skymaster has a range of 32 and with 25 of them at green you can do amazing things. Even at green you can drop 171 cargo points 20 mcr from your base. By the time these come out in the game your enemy probably has alot of territory and can't possibly build enough troops or ldb to defend against drops of this nature. You literally can drop anywhere on the map!!

I continue to be annoyed by the unrealistic effect AIR 40 regiments have on the game. Players with Long range Russian and American transports spray AIR 40's all over the map like they were seed corn being sowed in a field. Even the absurb Air 40 drop on Tehran from Morocco is not unheard of with the late game American transport aircraft. I have seen UAE to Moscow drops in the past in one memorable game.

Its taken me several years but I think I have the answer and even though RTG is loath to tamper with the programing of the game this would not be too hard.....

Modify the rule that triples airlift capacity of a transport plane to a maximum range of 5. The purpose of the triple capcity was because gliders are used. No glider will be able to no more than 5 provinces and this is borne out historically. I can just hear the tow ropes snapping in the turbulence after 3 hour plus in the air! By the way how did all those troopers in the gliders use the restroom facilites for flights longer than two hours? No restrooms on those gliders!...Oh! I forgot they had parachutes they could just "Step Out" when mother nature called.

How simple is that? Full airlift capcity per the rules except the trippling lift capcity is limited to 5 SMR.

Warmaster,

I think you will have to live with the rules as these are... Make nessesary preparations for the arrival of enemy paratroopers.

I have been on both sides with paratroopers... While on the receiving side, within a few turns no new paradrops occured, as the defences were too much. As for the lost territory, within 2 turns, I liberated the assaulted location...

As everybody knows all tech, and knows the tech of your enemy, you can plan your defences.

So, I will say: No change in the rules. Everybody should know the capabilities of their enemies and plan accordingly...

Norbert

I agree with your assesment that I will have to wait for any kind of game system change. I only hope the changes occur sometime before my first Social Security check arrives (yet another item in life that I am promised but not quite sure will happen either).


Nevertheless I still wish to enjoy the chance to rant.......

Now why are these one time only use gliders at no cost in the Victory! system? They aren't free...there is a real cost in air points to manufacture them. How about a rule like all Transport Aircraft using the triple capcity option (gliders) in an Air Assault Mission take an automatic 25% casulties to reflect the loss of the gliders and the cost to replenish them.

More realitically but with considerable more programming effort it takes a entirely new air unit name Glider that suffers 100% casulties when used. The Glider unit would be attached to Air Transport aircraft in a maximum 1:1 ratio. It would also require its own airbase rating.

Rant complete

Uhhh.... I dunno about all this, Warmaster.
"Realism" is kinda different pending on individual perceptions.
I've had knocks with similar subjects, between myself and my TA's, concerning different aspects of the game - not to mention that I do give Russ an earful too, from time to time...

Any ways, concerning limiting glider use to range 5 SMR; what are you going to do about the Me-323? It is already a glider, technically, and has a range of 9 SMR (!).

So, according to the rules; does that mean that the Me-323 also tows, it's equivilance in additional lift capacity with, extra gliders? I don't think so.

In its pure glider form, they used 3x Me-110C's to get it airborne! After a few disasters, they developed the He-111Z (Zwilling) to get it airborne. Finally they simply slapped 6 engines and some rocket packs on it. So trying to make a rule about transports, and attaching gliders, is something I do agree with. But, there are quite a few things / types of things, to consider.

Or you could just accept Victory as a game and play it within the rules.

Leave "realism" to any future game with the name Victory II

How about this for realism..............I propose abolishing the AIR40 unit out of every tech pack.

Except for some Russion drops in the Winter of 1941 there were ZERO regimental drops in the war. Every drop done by the German and Allies was a Division or Corps size airdrop. There was effectively no use the AIR40 Unit. Even the Russians dropped two regiments when they did thier Winter drop which was effectively a light division.

The AIR40 serves no good game purpose due to out of proportion effect on the game or in its realism. Isn't elimination from the Tech Pack the easiest programming change of all?

What about Operation Torch, which saw the first major airborne assault carried out by the United State?. The U.S. 509th Parachute Infantry Battalion (yes, battallion!) flew all the way from Britain, over Spain, to drop near Oran and capture airfields at Tafarquay and Youk-Les-Bains. Although the extreme range forced several aircraft to land in the desert, both airports were captured, despite the 509th being widely scattered.

On July 13, 1943, more than 112 aircraft and 16 gliders carrying 1,856 men, took off from North Africa. Their initial target was to capture the Primosole bridge and the high ground around it, providing a pathway for the 8th Army, but heavy anti-aircraft fire shot down many of the Dakotas before they reached their target. Only 295 officers and men were dropped close enough to carry out the assault on the bridge. They captured the bridge but the German 4th Parachute Brigade recaptured it. They held the high ground until relived by the 8th army, but the mission had been a failure.

US airborne forces were held in reserve during the initial invasion of Italy at Salerno, called Operation Avalanche. A few days later, during the German counter attacks, 5000 paratroopers from the 82nd Airborne and 509th PIB dropped to help secure the beachhead.

On August 15, 1944, British parachute units, which included the 4th, 5th and 6th Para battalions and lst Indian Army Pathfinders, dropped into Southern France between Frejus and Cannes as part of Operation Dragoon. US airborne forces dropped about 5,000 airborne troops during this operation -- they were called the "1st Airborne Task Force", comprised of several unattached units, including the 509th and 551st PIBs and the 517th Parachute Regimental Combat Team.

In the fall of 1943, the U.S. 503rd Parachute Infantry Regiment had a successful drop on the Markham Valley during the invasion of New Guinea. This was the first Allied airborne assault in the Pacific Theater of Operations. In July of 1944, the 503rd jumped again to capture Noemfoor Island off New Guinea.

For Operation Dracula, a parachute battalion secured Japanese coastal defences, which allowed the seaborne occupation of Rangoon to proceed without opposition.

The Soviets mounted no large-scale Airborne operations in WW2, despite their early leadership in the field in the 1930s. The largest drop was Brigade-sized, and was not successful.


I'm sure other Victory! players can find other examples in support of AIR40-sized units ... .

Hello,

The only resemblance Victoy! has with the actual history is that the timeframe is during the historical Second World War and that unit names were used.

This is a GAME, in a historical setting. During gameplay it is all about numbers...

Setting up a defence against a para regiment is very easy. Any country is able to place sufficient defences to stop an assault using a para regiment!

Norbert