Pete has just informed me that after the first turn when you have put a new pop seg on an enemy world and find out the POP SEG number of a newly created pop seg, that the other side can GATK and take your pop seg, and any troops you put in the pop seg. SO you need to put down new pop segs after the probe attack or if you do not get the ships there to do the probe, you have to start over and do a new colb to keep the enemy from getting the pop seg.

SO now the enemy can SPAM GATK, and take any pop segs that have been there more than one turn the minute you put a troop in them and the troop will now also be owned by the enemy.


THIS IS NOT what I have been told by PETE for the last 7 years.

to clarify let me tell you how it works

Turn 1 you do a COLB on an enemy world.

Turn 2 your troop ship fails to arrive with troops, but your ally arrives and does a COLB

Turn 3 you unload a troops, into that two turn old POP SEG, on pulse 35

On pulse 36 the enemy GATKs, and taikes your pop seg, and gets your pop seg and the troops you put in it AND gets your allies pop seg that is SUPPOSED to be SAFE from this kind of cheating.

SO in order to take a HW if anything slows you down, like wanting to do a probe the HW first, you will have to put down a new pop seg every turn, or Every other turn if an ally is involved AND you will have to make sure NO other pop seg has something in it

Nah, just get your troops down and probe on the turn following the COLB. Spammiong COLB or GATK orders does only one thing: it slows down turn processing and greatly confuses the issue (causing more problems that you don't want).

Empires have been conquering worlds for a long, long time and haven't had to do anything like you suggest, which is good because delaying processing time isn't good for anyone.

Sometimes an empty pop group gets conquered anyway before an attacker has had a reasonable chance to attack (in your specific case, you had several turns), but it's pretty rare. In those cases I offer to create a new pop group to give the attacker another chance to get troops down.

THEN WHY does the enemy have MY POP SEG AND MY PROBE TROOP? AND my allies NEWLY CREATED POP SEG????

Bottom line is this, if the enemy probes your HW, SPAM GATK the following turns and you will capture his pop seg, and whatever troops he puts in it, usually an amount 3 times what you have, hopefully at least doubling your ground forces.

Another new trick, have an ally put a pop seg on your HW, Put something in it, and order number one after the skies of your HW are clear GATK, and take your allies pop seg and the enemies new one.

I don't know if I'm missing something here (...and I want to know for my OWN benefit!!!) - but as long as the attacker/invader is not interferred with on the turn immediately following the COLB and thus given time to prepare his troops, what's the problem with a defender attacking on subsequent turns? There has to be a point when it is ok for the defender to take the initiative, after all. It doesn't sound unreasonable that an attacker who is late in following through with his troop landings may be dropping them into an ambush that captures them. That's how things appear to work with the rest of the game (make an order out of sequence, or with overlapping priorities that use up resources or whatever, and the planned end product is not realized - with sometimes seriously annoying consequences).

This isn't a criticism Gary - I just don't understand what I've missed here. It certainly doesn't sound like 'cheating' to me so far.

Since I think this is ANOTHER poor idea in the game i will provide a solution.

first PETE says he does not want GATK spamming or the pop seg to be invulnerable.

HAVE error check for GATK, that checks, in addition to whatever it checks NOW,

That there are NOT only troops in the pop seg
And if there are only troops in the pop seg, were they there at the end last turn, as compared to start of this turn.

These checks, would add, that if the troops were put into the pop seg that turn, the pop seg could not be taken, if they were still there at start of the next turn the pop seg could be taken. you would use a simple true false, compare.

so check are there troops in pop seg = true
were the troops there at end of last turn = true
Were the troops there at start of this turn = true

Then GATK takes pop seg or goes ahead

any False value, and pop SEG can not be taken.

ANOTHER solution would be for troops in pop segs to Automatically move to an army and defend on a GATK.

the problem is that you can not probe the HW first, if you do, the next turn your pop seg can be taken IF the defender spams GATK, and you put troops down into the same pop seg for the final attack.

IF the troops AUTOMATICALLY moved out of the POP SEG into an army instead of SITTING there like Dolts, that would be fine. When the defender attacked there would be a battle, not just a gift of the troops to him.

The latter is how it happened to me just a few turns back.
I was also rather pissed about this, as no Field Fortifications got build
At least the troops moved into the already created army and fought.
The popgroup was only two turns old because of a botched order (forgot to move into orbit).
I was not too happy with this as well. I understood Pete that way, that popgroups are rather save.
The way it is done now, I fear the numbers for popgroups will run out in the near future.


Marcus

He doesn't. Please refer to my emails to you and your ally on these matters. I'm still waiting on your response to my offer of a probe (this would destroy the probe division, as expected), but perhaps you missed my several requests for an answer on that while you were busy posting here.

I'm far less interested in theorycrafting over what might or might not happen with pop groups than I am in solving actual problems. This particular issue has been solved. The bulk of the playerbase won't use a lot of COLB orders because they simply invade and take their target worlds right off rather than delay and lose production due to the lack of an attack. Probing is fine, but imposes a definite delay.

Yes you said you would give me a new pop seg and put the ALLY pop seg back in his control.

NOW exactly how does that FIX the issue for future problems, those pesky code problems you just stated you are not interested IN?

IF the troops moved out and fought then PETE noticed it, and using hand moderation, created the army. PROBLEM, he has to notice it, COULD we have computer moderation please.

bump

It is my understanding that when a COLB is done it is safe for the next turn. Why should it be safe after that? The defender should be allowed to attack pop groups.
If someone, does a COLB on turn one, lands troops and does a probe GATK on turn 2, I see no problem with the defender being able to GATK later on turn 2 and wipe out a poorly done beachead. The attacker should then have to 'start over' with a new COLB, etc. for future turns.

A few random, non-involved in the events thoughts on this...
Two things strike me about probe attacks (other than acknowledging the fact that people don't want to attack superior forces with their main attack if they can avoid it it, of course)...
1) Probes are a tactical choice, not a necessity of the game. It's the player's choice after weighing the risks involved. By definition, 'risks' can have negative outcomes as well as the positive ones.
2) Probes warn the opposition that you are on the ground - meaning, if you haven't followed through as you should and the opponent is on the ball, things can get sticky. It makes perfect sense for the defender to take out the landing field (the pop seg) if you know it's there (as it must be with a probing attack having taken place) and the attacker fumbles the ball with his orders (I don't know about others, but I'm pretty good at missing just one part of a sequence of orders - thankfully not yet costing me an army though!) I figure that it is the responsibility of the attacker to get it right, not the defender to allow the attacker any leeway.

One thing I will say though. I don't think the defender should get operational troops out of the deal. He's effectively captured the boxed up division's equipment, not the loyalty of the captured troops. I'd rather see the captured equipment assigned in its component parts to the pop seg's stockpile, ideally together with the soldiers involved disappearing from the game (probably in some prison camp somewhere).

Interesting discussion though.

because if the defender attacks every pulse til you transfer down your army he will get your army, and the pop seg, NO BATTLE> This is the turn after the probe.

AGAIN, main problem is THIS is not what PETE said in earlier conversations. AND this is not the first time PETE tells people one thing and then acts like something completely different has always been the way.

LIKE, I was told UGS will never approach 100 percent loss, unless they are really far apart, yet I have connected HW's at 100 percent loss
and

Wormholes
and
Sightings at wormholes
and
spies
and
well you get the point, then to top it off he acts like you are crazy when you point out a problem or inconsistancy.

What the heck is a POP SEG?

He means pop group. Terminology from a different game for the same thing.

Turn 1. COLB
Turn 2. NEWA Probe Force 1
OC 1 probe division
DIV ALL
GATK
Turn 3 COLB
Turn 4. NEWA Invasion!
OC 1 All divisions
DIV ALL
GATK

Well, the rules for Gates have changed because Pete agreed they were wrong...

Hmmmm.....why do a probe? Just dump a 1000 divisions and take the world...no sense in being overly cautious , and if the divisions are not on your HW , you can afford to lose them .

Let me get your situation straight, you are saying, Turn 1 COLB, Turn 2 DAF, NEWA, DIV GATK (this is with one division, or some nominal amount) to probe the enemy defenses to see what they have. Turn 3, DAF more troops and launch the 'real' attack based upon the results of the probe., correct?
and you believe it is unfair for the defender to GATK between the time of your probe, and the turn 3 GATK, is this what you are saying? That is defender GATKs on order 1 of Turn 3 and caputures all your divisions you DAF??

If that is the situation, my opinion still stands. It has always been my understanding that from Pete and posts, that the attacking pop group is only protected long enough to launch a GATK on turn 2, that is for the first few orders so you can do a DAF, NEWA, DIV, GATK. If I am the defender, and I GATK after the invader's probe attack, I should be able to capure the alien pop group (beachhead). If the attacker only did a probe attack, he should be prepared to do another COLB, wait a turn, then unload and attack on a subsequent turn.
I, for one, will routinely do GATK on my worlds near the end of my turn, to clear out such pop groups should they be there. And since we are pointing out flaws, I think it is a flaw that alien COLB on your planets are not reported to you. ie. "Alien #999 has established pop group #999 on planet Makebelieve 1b"

As for capturing enemy divisions in pop groups, I'll have to think about that one.

Turn 1 - COLB
Turn 2 - OC, NEWA, DIV, GATK (probe)

Now from my understanding, once you issue the GATK, your forces and the enemy forces engage in a battle. The enemy forces are in essence tagged has having fought. So if the defending player tries to issue a GATK on say order 36, that GATK will fail as his troops have already engaged in battle this turn and they cannot launch attacks (defend, yes, launch, no). Is this correct?

If the above is true, here is how I've seen the rest or turn 2 and turn 3 playing out.

Turn 2 - (Late in turn, your big troop transport arrives) OC, DIV (no need for a new army as the old one still exists even if all troops were destroyed).
Turn 3 - GATK (if you think you can win)
or
Turn 3 - EAF (Evac as they're too strong) .. the enemy player issue Turn 3 - GATK for order 1.

The EAF will work as the GATK orders are processed after others, basically the battle is flagged, all order 1 orders processed, then the fight. (Again, is this correct?)

Quite frankly, I do not understand how you could have your troops captured except for poor planning and poor battle execution. This is of course based assuming the items above are correct, which is my understanding. I could be wrong though.

The OC then DIV, ALL both takes an order block, so if the defender GATK's in the first order block while you are OC'ing the fresh divisions . . .

I think after 1 turn an enemy population group should be fair game for the defender to GATK. How long do you think it should last? If a defending fleet arrives and stops further troop landings, do you think you should be able to come back 10 turns later and still have a beachhead on his homeworld? Why should an attacker be allowed to probe attack then wait a turn to see the results without risking the loss of his landing zone? This gives all advantages to the attacker. When an issue is in doubt, I think it should favor the defender.

I also agree that when someone COLB's a planet, all empires that already have a population group on that body should receive a message. Also, when someone GATK's and captures an undefended body, the "defenders" should receive notification.

I don't see the problem here, it's always been that you have a single turns free reign after the COLB to ensure you get your bridgehead if the defender is weak enough to allow you the high orbital. What is more disconcerting is that using the tactics you and your ally did, with COLBing turn after turn is that you would actually be blocking the defender from counterattacking. As long as you had two or three empires taking turns COLBing you could always claim your "counter-attack free" turn...but I am sure that was not what you were trying for...

/Locklyn

I have no idea what you are writing about. I've never attacked an active position.

Sorry Paradigm, I was referring to Garys initial post but replied to yours. I could not understand what the problem he was posting about was. And as I said...having multiple positions COLBing in a row could be used to locking out the defender from counterattacking. Again my apologies if you thought I was implying you in my reply, it was for garys.

/Locklyn

Repeatedly using COLB would be 'gaming' it if its sole intent was to to stop the defender from counter-attacking legitimately. If it's a one time followup to a probe, it could be argued as being within the bounds of fairness, though I doubt the defender would think so when he is restrained from playing himself out of trouble by any slack attacking play. I doubt if any of the players so incensed about other instances they perceive to be 'gaming' would resort to it as a cheat (if for no other reason than that it would NOT remain a secret for long that they'd gone the hypocrite route, let alone it being something they object to in the first place!) - and I'm assuming it would come to the attention of Pete PDQ too!

We are not talking about tiny wienie 1000 man armies here. And there is such a thing as STRAT AGE EEEEEE. I know the enemy has a good number of troops. I do not know where they are located. I probe the HW's all in the same turn, and KNOW what to send where. PLEASE when you get to my HW just dump down a bunch of divisions and attack.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
** GROUND COMBAT REPORT **
----- JAENDA [ N (Deep Red) 4 VI ] [Single Star] - 2 -----
MAC MacroHard # 2496 'Rainbow Stripes'
Humans, most with glasses and computers
IDE Imperial Demonic Envelopment # 737 'World Impaled On Pitchfork Over Open Flame'
Call them imps, demons or devils. With their horns, claws, fangs and barbed tails, these smallish winged reptiles look like
the quintessential mythical purveyors of evil and darkness as represented on a thousand worlds throughout the galaxy.
Appearing to be nearly obsessed with destruction and killing, these creatures immediately attack in swarms any lifeform
other than their own, with total disregard for their own lives.
DRA Dragonheart # 3013 'Two Red Dragons En Passant'
** Table of Organization & Equipment: Its ON # 10853 **
MacroHard # 2496
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Light Fanatics
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chemical Weapons [300] Irritant Agents Chemical Munitions
Close Combat [4500] Ablative Armor, Battleaxe, Chainsaw, Club, Dagger, Flak Jacket
M75 High Explosive Grenade, Spear, Sword
Nuclear Weapons [700] Hydrolithium Bomb, Nuclear Bomb, Thermo-Atomic Bomb
Small Arms [800] Carbine, Harpoon Gun, Semiautomatic Pistol, Shotgun
** Table of Organization & Equipment: Home Guard # 1 **
Imperial Demonic Envelopment # 737
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Fortress
5 Heavy Fanatics
2 Imperial Marines Air Force
23 Light Fanatics
2 Transport
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Defense [211200] Aegis Heavy Laser Cannon, Anti-Aircraft Artillery, Argus Laser Cannon
Blowpipe Surface-to-Air Missile, Cerberus Laser Cannon, Nike-Hercules SAM
Stinger SAM, Warden Point Defense System
Air Support [315200] Advanced Attack Helicopter, Advanced Jet Bomber, Advanced Jet Fighter-Bomber
Attack Helicopter, Helicopter, Jet Bomber, Jet Fighter-Bomber
Strategic Bomber
Air To Air [26400] Advanced Jet Fighter, Advanced Jet Fighter-Bomber, Jet Fighter
Jet Fighter-Bomber
Ammunition [19500] Armored Personnel Carrier, Halftrack, Heavy Truck, Truck
Antitank [6000] Viper Anti-Tank Guided Missile
Artillery [4000] Longbow, M82 Mortar
Biological Weapons [9900] Harmful Biological Munitions
Chemical Weapons [9900] Irritant Agents Chemical Munitions
Close Combat [1859000] Ablative Armor, Assault Armor, Battle Armor, Battle Dress, Battleaxe
Chainsaw, Club, Combat Environment Suit, Dagger, Flak Jacket
M75 High Explosive Grenade, Morale Combat Drug, Performance Combat Drug
Spear, Sword, Thermic Lance
Engineering [8000] Barbed Wire, High Explosive Demolition Charge
Heavy Weapons [16000] M203 Grenade Launcher, Recoilless Rifle
Medical [27000] Cellular Enhancement Drug, Mk I Field Hospital, Morale Combat Drug
Performance Combat Drug
Nuclear Defense [1000] Perimeter Shield
Nuclear Weapons [42900] ESP Deluder, Howler Bomb, Nuclear Bomb, Telekinetic Blaster
Security [4000] Dartgun, Tangler
Small Arms [25500] Carbine, Harpoon Gun, Laser Rifle, Semiautomatic Pistol, Shotgun
Transport [39000] Armored Personnel Carrier, Halftrack, Heavy Truck, Truck
** Table of Organization & Equipment: Blood Guard # 101 **
Dragonheart # 3013
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
205 Colonial Settler
135 Combat Engineer
118 EW
90 Fortress
10 Guerrilla
230 Heavy Fanatics
100 Imperial Army Air Force
100 Imperial Army Armor
111 Imperial Army Artillery
100 Imperial Army Heavy Air Defense
280 Imperial Army Mechanized Infantry
100 Imperial Army Special Forces
116 Imperial Army Strategic Bomber
100 Imperial Guards Air Force
80 Imperial Guards Heavy Armor
76 Imperial Guards Strategic Bomber
86 Imperial Marines Air Force
95 Imperial Marines Armor
102 Imperial Marines Heavy Infantry
79 Imperial Marines Raiders
83 Imperial Marines Special Forces
87 Intelligence
169 Light Fanatics
34 Medical
80 Militia
100 Naval
90 NBC
37 Security
7 Transport

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Defense [26932800] Anti-Aircraft Artillery, Blowpipe Surface-to-Air Missile, Nike-Hercules SAM
Patriot SAM, Stinger SAM
Air Support [4447200] Advanced Attack Helicopter, Advanced Jet Fighter-Bomber, Attack Helicopter
Helicopter, Jet Fighter-Bomber
Air To Air [3781200] Advanced Jet Fighter-Bomber, Jet Fighter, Jet Fighter-Bomber
Ammunition [2535750] Air Car, Armored Personnel Carrier, Battle Sled, Cargosub, Halftrack
Heavy Halftrack, Heavy Truck, Hovercraft, Skimmer, Tckon Imperial Assault Boat
Truck
Amphibious [56580000] Air Car, Battle Sled, Cargosub, Hovercraft, Hovertank, Skimmer
Tckon Imperial Assault Boat
Antitank [7125100] Mamba ATGM, Tank Destroyer, Viper Anti-Tank Guided Missile
Aquatic [251640000] Cargosub, Tckon Imperial Assault Boat
Armor [603096000] Armored Car, Armored Personnel Carrier, Assault Tank, Ferret Excavator Tank
Heavy Tank, Hovertank, Light Tank, Scout Tank, Tckon Imperial Assault Tank
Tckon Imperial Assault Walker, Walker
Artillery [140493990] Advanced Heavy Field Howitzer, Advanced Howitzer, Advanced MRLS
Defender Counterbattery Radar, Guardian Counterbattery Radar
Heavy Field Howitzer, Long Tom Howitzer, Longbow, M110 Mortar
M82 Mortar, Mobile SSM, Multiple Rocket Launcher System, Particle Projector Cannon
Surface-to-Surface Missile, Watchdog Counterbattery Radar
Biological Defense [278800] Cellular Enhancement Drug, Mk I Biological Weapons Defenses
Mk III Biological Weapons Defenses, Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor
Biological Weapons [6321000] Dangerous Biological Munitions, Deadly Biological Munitions
Harmful Biological Munitions
Broken Terrain [48094200] Ferret Excavator Tank, Halftrack, Heavy Halftrack, Tckon Imperial Assault Walker
Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor, Walker
Camouflage [314300] Chameleon Cloak, Sneak Suit, Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor
Chemical Defense [669800] Cellular Enhancement Drug, Chemscreen, Mk I Chemical Weapons Defenses
Mk IV Chemical Weapons Defenses, Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor
Chemical Weapons [61343100] Advanced Heavy Field Howitzer, Advanced Howitzer, Blister Agents Chemical Munitions
Deadly Agents Chemical Munitions, Heavy Field Howitzer, Incapacitant Agents Chemical
Munitions
Irritant Agents Chemical Munitions, Lethal Agents Chemical Munitions
Long Tom Howitzer, Mobile SSM, Surface-to-Surface Missile
Close Combat [290607900] Ablative Armor, Assault Armor, Battle Armor, Battle Dress, Battleaxe
Chainsaw, Club, Combat Environment Suit, Dagger, Flak Jacket
Greataxe, Heavy Thermic Lance, M75 High Explosive Grenade, Morale Combat Drug
Performance Combat Drug, Power Blade, Powered Assault Armor
Spear, Sword, Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor, Thermic Lance
Vibroaxe, Vibroblade
Electronics Warfare [9375800] J108 Wraith Jammer, J2 Phantom Jammer, J41 Phantom Jammer, J453 Ghost Jammer
Scrambler
Engineering [7137000] Barbed Wire, C552 HE Demo Charge, Claymore Mine, Electric Fence
HE Mine, High Explosive Demolition Charge, Razor Wire
Environmental [41000] ECK
Heavy Weapons [222248800] Battle Sled, Brumbar Infantry Support Gun, Hamburg Infantry Support Gun
Intimidator Pulse Cannon, M203 Grenade Launcher, M205 Grenade Launcher
Portable Missile Launcher, Recoilless Rifle, Tckon Imperial Assault Blaster
Tckon Imperial Assault Boat
Intelligence [8290000] Holographic Generator, K1 Terrier Scanner, Laser Communications Gear
Scout Tank, Smoke Projector, Tethys Medium Range Sonar, Triton Short Range Sonar
Medical [1821600] Cellular Enhancement Drug, Mk I Field Hospital, Mk II Field Hospital
Morale Combat Drug, Performance Combat Drug
Nuclear Defense [95850000] Haven Shield, Nuclear Damper, Perimeter Shield, Refuge Shield
Sanctuary Shield, Stasis Field Generator, Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor
Tower Shield
Nuclear Weapons [351624000] Cobalt Fusion Bomb, Fusion Bomb, Hydrogen Bomb, Mobile SSM, Nuclear Bomb
NW-88 Skyhammer, RXT-34 Fusion Burner, Solar Fusion Generator
Surface-to-Surface Missile, Thermo-Atomic Bomb, Tri-Cobalt Fusion Bomb
Open Terrain [210669750] Armored Car, Armored Personnel Carrier, Assault Tank, Heavy Halftrack
Heavy Tank, Heavy Truck, Hovertank, Light Tank, Scout Tank, Tckon Imperial Assault Tank
Tckon Imperial Assault Walker, Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor
Truck, Walker
Orbital Bombardment [22914000] Battle Sled, Mobile SSM, Surface-to-Surface Missile, Tckon Imperial Assault Boat
Security [6630000] Dartgun, Electric Fence, Heavy Stunner, Stunner, Tangler, Tazer
Small Arms [549240000] Assault Blaster, Assault Laser Rifle, Battle Blaster, Blaster
Blaster Pistol, Carbine, Frostgun, Gamma-Ray Laser Rifle, Gas Cannon

Gauss Rifle, Harpoon Gun, Harpoon Pistol, Heavy Blaster Rifle
Heavy Carbine, Heavy Flamethrower, Heavy Gas Cannon, Heavy Laser Rifle
Heavy Machinegun, Heavy Shotgun, Laser Pistol, Laser Rifle, Maser Rifle
Needler, Semiautomatic Pistol, Shotgun, Sonic Rifle, Tckon Imperial Assault Blaster
Tckon Imperial Battle Blaster, X-Ray Laser Rifle
Space Defense [3150000] Defender Counterbattery Radar, Guardian Counterbattery Radar
Haven Shield, Perimeter Shield, Refuge Shield, Sanctuary Shield
Stasis Field Generator, Tower Shield
Special Weapons [2194200] ICE-1, ICE-2, ICE-3, ICE-4, Particle Projector Cannon
Subterranean [952350] Ferret Excavator Tank, Tckon Imperial Powered Assault Armor
Transport [4896500] Air Car, Armored Personnel Carrier, Battle Sled, Cargosub, Halftrack
Heavy Halftrack, Heavy Truck, Hovercraft, Skimmer, Tckon Imperial Assault Boat
Truck
** Tactical Rating Modifiers **
Air Defense Air Support Air to Air Ammunition Amphibious Antitank Aquatic
-10 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
Armor Artillery Biodefense Bioweapons Broken Terrain Camouflage Chemdefense
-10 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
Chemweapons Close Combat EW Engineering Environmental ESP Heavy Weapons
-10 -30 -10 -10 -10 +0 -10
Intel Medical Nuc Defense Nuc Weapons Open Terrain Orbital Bmb Security
-10 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10 -10
Small Arms Space Defense Special Wpns Subterranean Telekinesis Telepathics Transport
-10 -10 -10 -10 +0 +0 -10
Odds: -33.99763 Total tactical combat odds shifts: -34
Attacking divisions counted as if they were 1.5 divisions each for casualty purposes
Defending divisions counted as if they were 3.05 divisions each for casualty purposes
Ground combat results
Attacker losses: 1 Light Fanatics
Defender losses: <no losses>

You know Gary , why don't you just resign to the fact that Pete is stacking the whole game to just go against you , and either suck it up and quit your whining, or quit the game completely as you have in the past threatened to do . And I guarentee , if I ever find one of your HW's , I will come prepared , and will not just stop by with 1000 divisions . Who cares about strategy? Overwhelming somebody is so much more fun .

The newly pop seg laid down last turn and number received this turn is captured and DOES NOT stop ground attacks.
Both my pop seg, put down when I cleared the skies, and my allies pop seg put down that turn were taken.

SO the at my HW, you will not have a pop seg for lets see

Turn one you come in and clear my HW and put down a POP SEG

Turn two I GATK on pulse 1 talking your pop seg, cause my ally has an old pop seg in the world with some thing in it

Turn 3 you find this out and yell cheat get pop seg transferred back to you

turn 4 I spam GATK and take your old pop seg again and the troops in it are now mine, you yell cheat, pete creates a new pop seg for you and says he really hates to run battles in between turns, they almost always do not work right.

turn 5 you attack the HW, Everything is gated out, EVERYTHING


ALL of this could be fixed by Beoghans Idea of IF there are troops in the pop seg, automatically have them put into army to fight. IE pete does not have to DO anything. but pete has stated he is not interested in ideas to fix

the Unfair part is the defender captures your army intact, and can DIV into his own for defense, unless, you do another COLB to get a safe pop group.

You can not GATK and capture a EMPTY pop group, even now

the other problem is pete would not let us get the enemy pop segs off our HW's earlier in the game, now he acts like he never heard of such a thing.

Sounds like its working pretty well to me.

As I understand it, the defender cannot attack until the turn after the first enemy pop group has been placed.
Sounds to me like your ally started the invasion a turn early, effectively alerting the enemy and giving them time to react.

I do agree we need a fixed policy on troops in stockpile. At the moment we are relying on Pete noticing and manually adjusting them.

There are three options:-
1) The code is adjusted so all troops in stockpile always fight. In that case, the defender never needs to issue a DIV order.

2) Allow stockpiled troops to be captured. While technically captured troops should not then fight for their captor, 99.9% of the cost of a division is the materiel, not the population. Unless you want to have the system convert captured troops back down in to their components, I think assuming some of the captor's surplus population takes over the equipment is okay.

3) Destroy all captured stockpiled divisions.

I would lean towards option 2. Its simpler and uses the existing code. It also encourages both parties to get their orders right.

Actually what it encourages is blind attacks, OR doing more COLB's always have a safe pop group, and Spamming GATKs by the defender.

More pop groups mean slower turns

While technically captured troops should not then fight for their captor LOL Technically with the tech we have you should be able to put down the army on the ground in the exact defensive or attack pattern you want, at the levels of tech in this game, there should be NO unload everything into a pile everyone look for your gun, and now line up, now fight

However it works there are only two real issues at hand. The attacker has to be able to establish a beachhead and the defender has to be able to boot them back to space. The first part generally works just fine however timing can always bite you in the a$$. The latter has never worked and it continues to be a problem. The defenders have got to be able to get rid of those pop groups. It matters not if an entire army is still sitting in crates ready to go or not. If the attacker fails to attack on impulse 4 on turn 2 then the beachhead pop group should not be safe. Just about all of my ground assaults have happened thus and have worked fine. The problems turn up when I get delayed, either by allies, fuel, circumstances, fuel, forgetfulness, fuel, mistakes or fuel, just to name a few. When that happens I just drop a new colony beacon and try again in a few turns.

It is also completely irrational that a thriving HW doesn't have the faintest idea that an enemy has dropped a pop group amongst the teaming masses on the world. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a long time and continues to really bug me. It should be fixed.

Let me also stand on my soap box and say that manual fixes between turns are a real pain. You can't plan when a manual fix is implemented just prior to the following turn. I have had numerous fleets fail to engage and sometimes they get fixed but not anything like always. I have also lost numerous fleets this same way and I find it quite annoying that I usually only find out about it after having sent in my orders, which is almost always on the date they are due and rarely early. The wasted orders to fleets that have been manually deleted do add up over time.

So, the comment at the top of this thread that pop groups have been reinstated and all is well is really beyond the pale. If these battles are over a HW then the defender should not be put in jeopardy by these last minute fiddles. If every correction was made the weekend turns came out and all sides knew about it 100% of the time then it could be accepted, but not in the current system.

In any event, good luck to all involved in the wars that started this thread.

Now where is my morning caffeine....

Actually Gary, I didn't say that troops in the pop group should automatically be able to fight. What I said was that captured divisions in the pop group should not be handed over intact to the defender when he counter attacks an unprepared invader. I pointed out that defenders might capture the boxed up (which would make automatic deployment technically 'unrealistic') division's equipment, but not the loyalty of the captive troops. I would be happy to see it broken down into component parts, with the soldiers themselves being shipped off to prison camps (eg henceforth out of the game!)

I was then, and am now speaking hypothetically, as I haven't come up against this particular problem myself. One thing this whole discussion is doing is to help 'educate' we players who have been in the game for a variously shorter time than you guys.

From a logical pint of view you shouldn't be able to capture troops, but from a game mechanics point of view it may be a different story. I have captured plenty of Divisions over the years and they have just been part of the spoils, just like capturing colonists, troopers etc.

Since we are reconciled to have a 4 impulse safe zone to allow for the NEWA, OC, DIV and GATK to take place then one should not be able to loose troops during that time period either, however, once you are past that then the situation is different. At some point the defender has to be able to clean up his planet else the attacker will have a permanent advantage.

Opinion aside I am pretty sure that Pete would step in and fix a problem that results primarily from a game mechanic requirement.

pop group reinstated, with probe troop in it or knowledge of what I would of seen if pete had pulled my probe troop out to defend is what was offered.

I refused any compensation, because if everything went as it was supposed to( a point I diagree with) then I should get no compensation.

SO I all I really know, is the troop that was in my pop seg is now controlled by the enemy, and he has at least two troops, one from me and at least one to make the attack, unless checking whether there are troops in the army doing the GATK is also hand moderated, and pete missed that, then I only know he has my one troop.

Well one MAIN problem is PETE, if he sees the troops in pop groups he deletes, or pulls them out into an army to fight, depending on what is going on.

Now with my troop getting captured, Pete did not see it to pull it out.

I want it done the same for EVERY battle. EITHER pull them out and have a battle or gift them away, BUT DO NOT make this a random, by relying on PETE to see it.

SO after my loss of troops, if someone shows up at my HW, I am going to spam GATK to try and get the attacking troops, if PETE pulls them out and there is a battle instead, then the game is not longer FAIR, because it depends on the GMls whim, not rules.

THIS is PETE again, and having to notice that there are troop in the pop group, IF he sees them he deletes them.

how i know this,

I was attacking an ally HW, to build something he could not build early in the game.
I called Pete as I had never done anything like this before.
HE said you know all those troops in stockpiles will be lost when you attack.
Really?
Yes, when you attack a HW with troops in the stockpiles they are lost.
OH.
OK, i will have to wait, a turn then, while he moves them.


did not know the only reason they would be lost is because Pete saw them.

course now I know I could capture troops in any pop group over one turn old.

One item here .. on the turn after you drop the COLB, it is always possible that the enemy has built more ships. If your hold over the HW skies is weak, if they issue any order to scan space on round 1, a space battle will commence. Now, if you OC on round 1, the OC will always work (per Pete) as the battles happen after other orders are processed. If you are moving in a transport and it arrives on round 1, well, it can trigger the space battle itself. And yes I did have this happen to me (transport moved in, battle ensued, held the skies, but the transport went down in flames with 100 units). This makes for some interesting choices. If you are certain you will win the space, you can move in the transport after the battle (if you didn't win, well....) and your ready for the OC next turn. If you hold off before moving in, you best include a lot of ships as escort with the transport, just to be safe.

So you just need a new order (Establish Beachhad) that creates a pop group, lands divisions and forms an army out of this divisions within 1 pulse.

And assigns officers as well

It would have been better from the start when Armies would have been entities from the start, just like fleets and would have actually move when loaded on a ship.

This army would have no need for a popgroup and could assault a popgroup directly from orbit.

Maybe Pete could implement these and call it "Jump Troop" tech, where improved and advanced weapons are pre-requisites for

why settle for a new tech, you could use all those shiny troop shuttles that have been sitting around since before you realized there really was no use for them.

Sir Smeg

Troop shuttles? I thought they were for capturing ships in space. "No real use for..." - Damn! (Yet another theory shot full of holes).

LOL That was what I once thought tractor beams and magnetic grapples could be used for and Pete alluded it could be done but all these years and about a kazillion battles later, I HAVE NEVER CAPTURED ANOTHER SHIP. They could be unarmed, almost shot to pieces etc etc but no, never.

/Locklyn

Good one

What troop shuttles are really for is the same thing as personal shuttles, you can shuttle troop to any planet you have surveyed a path, and many planets you just heard about on TV, or while staying at a holiday inn.

Years ago, when I played Legends, you had a pool of floating Pop Segments that you could assign to a force as needed.
So, putting that in Supernova terms, rather than creating a Pop Group and waiting until next turn to get the randomly assigned number, you could plant a known number down on the planet eg COLB 999 123456 and use it right away.
Of course, that would change the dynamics of the game, not to mention a bunch of code. Maybe something to consider for Supernova III.

But, ironically, whole divisions of alien troops are easy to capture.