I am no where near Portugal but thought this might be an intersting diiscussion.

So how would you Victory veterans take out Portugal?

Just curious.

I'm guessing that you want something a little more detailed than - Planes, Planes, Armor and Planes.

For purposes of this discussion, do we assume that Spain is Portugal's ally or enemy? One's axis of attack options become somewhat more limited if Spain is Portugal's friend, yes?

And I am very curious!

Which game

Well, if I am playing Portugal, you can't conquer it. There would be NO way!

Really no game in particular... just trying to start a conversation.

If you prefer how about

.. the best way to conquer Switzerland

or

... the best way to conquer Tunisia.

or even which country is the hardest to defend and why?

Takeda

Okay ... Switzerland.

For purposes of this discussion I need to know the following: What type of game (Standard or Advanced Start)?

-SK

Let's say standard as some people are getting jumpy in the Vic71 threads since I started this one.

Takeda

Standard it is. :lol:

You could reasonably assume that Switzerland will have chosen Russian or German units, due to the fact it is a land-locked nation and naval assets are unnecessary thus mitigating some of the inherent advantages of British and American tech.

You could also reasonably assume that Switzerland is one united AIC as it only possesses four Regions: Bern, Geneva, Zurich and Bellizona.

For purposes of this discussion, I will assume that only one country will be attacking Switzerland and Switzerland has no other country aiding in it's defense.

The most exposed flank of Switzerland, in my opinion, is it's border with France. Here's why -

1. Bern (Hills) shares a border with Belfort (Plains) & Dijon (Plains).
2. Geneva (Mountain) shares a border with Macon (Plains) & Grenoble (Mountains).

Because of this France can attack into Bern up to seven times (with MECH/ARM Divisions):
1. Belfort -> Bern
2. Dijon -> Bern
3. Strasbourg -> Belfort -> Bern
4. Nancy -> Belfort -> Bern
5. Troyes -> Dijon -> Bern
6. Auxerre -> Dijon -> Bern
7. Bourges -> Dijon -> Bern

You can soften up Bern with multiple low-odds (~1:1) ATC attacks then follow up with a PIN attack or two.

Geneva would be a slightly harder nut to crack. I would use MTN units instead of MECH/ARM units for three reasons: {1} Because of the SMR value of the Mountain terrain being a 3, MECH/ARM units lose their advantage of mobility, both MTN and MECH/ARM can enter the region but go no further; {2} MECH/ARM units are reduced to 85%/80% firepower in the Mountains while MTN have 110% firepower; and {3} the MTN units are less expensive.

The big question is: Can you achieve Air Superiority or Parity?

Thoughts?

Since I'm playing Italy in 68 I have some experience in dealing with switserland. (he is my TA in the game)

On one hand I agree that France is a logical enemy for Switserland (in 68 he attacked switserland together with the Lowlands, who he had ceeded dyon, which was strategically very good.)

On the other hand France has a lot of potential enemies and will have to accept all the friends he can get.

Again looking at game 68, he got in a fight with me (italy) in the south and lost a lot of production in the north to Ireland. Now I think that strategically they messed up big time and should have been able to do better seen the fact that both Germany and Spain did not get involved.

Third thought however on the Swiss/France relation ship is the fact that Switserland needs to get food provinces in. To do that he needs to move into france or germany. The north of italy will do him no good and neither do the bordering provinces of austria. From that perspective France and Switserland either going to be in bed together against Germany, or in war.

So far the reflections on the french-swiss relation ship. Samething more or less applies to the Germans.

I think in potential Italy can be a bigger threat to Switserland. The Italians can use the energy of the swiss and can relatively savely defend it's borders as long as there are no big landing troops threatening the boot of Italy.

Austria I see as little threat to switserland since they have to much other worries in the beginning and the supply lines are not convinient.

Defending Switserland:
If playing switserland move your AIC to the province furthest away from the front line. Build fortifications in the cities. Build Tanks in the cities and mtn units in the province. This way the mtn units will do significant damage to the attacking force. Retreat the MTN units to your AIC 1 province (not the city) and counter attack from the city with the tanks. Fly air covers, do not bother to attack with air units in the beginning.

Any reaction on my visions?

Erik

To all,

Switzerland with proper handling and a little luck can hold out but not stop an invasion.

Your multiple attacks only work if the computer is playing and the troops are in the province. Anybody who know how to defend keeps the troops in the city. Plus with the proper tactics and defenses, cities offer a better way of defending.

The tech really does not become a factor till after turn 17.

You could be british or american and do the same job.

Now for the russian version after turn 17 you get t-34's. Which on the defense with legendry fortifications and deliberate defense. get to be a nasty worm to dig out.

The only problem is with their fighters they suck...till around turn 30+, even then they still suck.

German is a little better, but not that much.

Armor attacks into the city losses to much firepower, even with ss divisions.

It all comes down to supplies and the ability to repair the defense forces. if you are unable to do that it is only a matter of time before the attackers win.

But it will never be easy or cheap.

I should know, I am playing switzerland and portugal in two different games.

The biggest problem is their lack of size to manuver troops around, and cutting off aic supply lines.

DezertCamel

As Dezert said, all comes down to the flow of supplies.

If you have a defending army, without MUN, you lose the battle...

Norbert

back to the original question, how to conquer portugal?

having played portugal twice, once with spain as ally and once waging war against it (succesfully) i have some experience at defending it.
being rather compact in size its easy to defend from both land and sea, it only has one harbor, which is also the capitol so naturally its likely heavily defended and fortified. making a landing in the city very tough.

the greatest risk for portugal, especially early in the game is spain, since it isnt all strange for spain to have german units and portugal is almost bound to have british or american units. thus having a disadvantage in firepower on the ground.

lets assume i'm spain and at the start of the game already intending to attack portugal. I'd pick German or British units and execute a two-pronged attack on portugal as soon as I can manage, before portugal can dig itself in, aimed at oporto and castelo branco. If using british units i'd also try to execute a naval bombing of lisbon in an attempt to destroy as much industry as possible. (ya might be lucky and possibly destroy 50% of portugals armament factories)

Portugal is bound to be able to counter attack, so it might be wise to hold (or create) a third force in reserve. always keep an army in reserve there are many places were portugal can counterattack into spain.

Being small, portugal likely will be just one AIC, collapse the AIC and prevent portugal from restoring it and you'll have severely limited where portugal can build new divisions.
Expect the conquest of Lisbon to be an extended siege, cripple portugal by keeping the pressure up, before beginning the siege.

a sea attack on portugal is a completely different story, there are much easier targets for a sea attack in the vicinity and i'd avoid it if possible.



have fun.

Here's how not to do it: start as Libya, march into Algeria and Morocco while Portugal is trouncing Spain. Spy that your next interesting target is across the Med. Declare war a bit too early, then wait to see what happens. Well, that's what we decided in the Tripoli war office anyway. Hasn't worked so far!

Hrm, that was interesting, sorry I didn't catch your name and I'm too lazy to go back and check, but your analysis on how to trounce Portugal with Spain was kinda scary actually. Seems like Spain has the ultimate upperhand. So how would you be able to stop Spain with Portugal? Is it a fair fight or does Spain actually have the advantage? Personally as Portugal I would immediatelly launch an attack from Oporto into Lugo and then Gijon. Do you think that would cripple Spain enough for Portugal to gain the upper hand?

No, its quite a fair fight, because portugal can concentrate his defences more, having fewer border provinces.
I actually went head to head with spain as portugal and I defeated him soundly, mainly because he tried a headlong rush for lisbon through Portalegre, instead of attacking me in multiple provinces. His attack was cut off from retreat and brok on lisbon's defences.

An attack on Lugo and Gijon would gain portugal little because Spains industrial heart is the Madrid/Almaden area and Bilboa. Gijon is lightly populated.
Take out Spains industries in Bilboa with a CB early in the war and aim for his central resource provinces and his ability to produce new armies will grind to a halt.
Any nation that can no longer keep up producing new armies is ultimately lost.

Although i protugal's case it doesnt hurt to attack spain before he attacks portugal.

The old rule 'a good defense is better than a bad offense' still applies I guess.

Just go for his big cities (with arm factories) and you will be victorious.


And remember: In war there is no substitute for Victory. (Mc Arthur)

Wasn't it Churchill who said that?

My sources indicate it was indeed Mc Arthur. Said soon after the final surrender of Japanese army forces in the far east.

Churchill was the dude who gave us 'We shall NEVER surrender'.

And as some people might know by now, a person called ChicO also said this...