Just wondering what is effective. And in what amounts. Let's assume they should be able to do serious damage to a 25 group TAS planes.

I guess most people build fighters. But what about an effective AAA setup?

ChicO,

Please define 'serious damage'......

Hamish

HAA is a city does very little damage. Only high flying planes will be attacked.

LAA in a province will most of the times do nothing, as overflying planes are at high altitude.

Norbert

Serious damage should be enough to make the attacker think about the effectiveness of his TAS strikes. Loosing 50% of your 25 group aircraft while damaging 10% of an army would be considered 'serious' damage.

I know it's impossible to stop these attacks. But as long as the attacker takes more damage than the defender I consider this an effective defense.

And even more important: Say both the attacker and defender build for ten turns. This gives LAA/HAA levels in a city of 1500. Each party has 3000 (30 air factories for ten turns) air pts. Given the fact that the attacker build good TAS for these 3000 pts and the defender builds only fighters for 3000 pts. Will this defense do 'serious' damage?

I know I'm a neurotic control freak.

Time for my medication.

ALMOST WEEKEND!!!!

Aaaaah, I remembered correctly> Just my strategy... Thanks Norbert!

Oops, did I give away too much? Will all my enemies fly in low? Please come and find out.


I remember something in the manual like 'Heavy concentrations AAA will reduce the effect of an attack'. More info??

ChicO,

I have seen many attacks on army groups. The effectiveness loss is not that great.
There is something like a key between the number of aircraft and the concentration of AAA.

Placing static AAAs in a city to defend against strategic bombings is of no use. An army only fires its AAA when directly attacked.
I think this is wrong. You should be able to place AAA divisions to defend key locations. The only defence against repeated airattacks against cities is building massive LAA. This is both time consuming and costly. And it will never completely stop an attack, but effectiveness loss will be slightly higher.

When the bombers reach a target location, they press the attack, regardless of losses.

Norbert

[FONT=Courier]An example:

Combat Bonuses for Belgium total + 5%
The 66th Air Div. inflicted the following damage:


ATTACKER STARTING FORCES

66th Air Div.
Air Group Name Experience Planes
336th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 46
337th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 51
338th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 56
339th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 20
340th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Line 46
341st Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 49
342nd Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Line 41
343rd Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 59
344th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 39
345th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 57
346th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 58
347th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 58
348th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Line 43
349th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Line 45
350th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 46
351st Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Line 50
352nd Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 12
353rd Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Line 23
354th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Green 57
355th Medium Bomber, Tu-2 Line 47


DEFENDER'S DIVISIONS
General Zorro is the commander for Luxembourg
89th Army (18 divisions)
Division Name Experience % Effective
42nd Infantry, INF 41 Green 82% / 78%
43rd Infantry, INF 41 Green 86% / 82%
44th Infantry, INF 41 Green 82% / 78%
46th Infantry, INF 41 Green 86% / 86%
65th Static, AAA Green 74% / 62%
68th Infantry, INF 41 Green 96% / 94%
75th Static, AAA Green 36% / 36%
76th Static, AAA Green 46% / 10%
83rd Infantry, INF 41 Green 79% / 75%
84th Infantry, INF 41 Green 94% / 94%
85th Infantry, INF 41 Green 75% / 75%
86th Infantry, INF 41 Green 100% / 100%
87th Infantry, INF 41 Green 83% / 81%
89th Static, AAA Green 74% / 74%
90th Static, AAA Green 76% / 64%
91st Static, AAA Green 62% / 38%
92nd Static, AAA Line 79% / 79%
93rd Static, AAA Green 22% / 0%


Flak reduced the effectiveness of this attack by 44%

nfbeerse:

Does not HAA fire at anything except for Ground/Sea Level? (section 4.3 Chapter C, in the rules)


ChicO:

Each party has 3000 (30 air factories for ten turns) air pts. Given the fact that the attacker build good TAS for these 3000 pts and the defender builds only fighters for 3000 pts. Will this defense do 'serious' damage?

Did you ever get an answer to this question? I would be curious myself...


Anybody:

How about the Static Anti-Aircraft Divisions?

Do these fire at aircraft only when the army group that they belong to is attacked by a TAS?

What if they are forced to retreat as the result of ground combat? Will they move or be destroyed?


Thanks,
Krysia's Krusader

Krysia's Krusader,

As airplanes usually attack a city at lower levels, HAA is in my oppinion therefore ineffective.
HAA can fire at overflying airplanes, not at Ground/Sea level and Low level.

Fighters, on FC mission, are only effective on an attack location, not on the route to target.
Fighters on INT mission can intercept overflying enemy aircraft.


Static anti-air divisions only respond to a direct attack on the army group they are attached to, not to a city bombing! The normal retreat rules also apply to static AAA divisions.

Hope this helps,

Norbert

Thanks Norbert.

So then static AAA divisions must be immediately railed in after you have taken territory, in order to help ward off enemy aircraft. And since they cannot conduct many types of offensive/defensive tactics - this, in my eyes, severly reduces their usefulness. Unless somebody else has a better trick for this type of unit (?).


I have a problem with the following reply though...




Is this from your experience? If so then the rule I mentioned above is incorrect. (I have also looked in the Rules Addendum Chapter.)

There are some tactics that employ Frontier or AAA divisions. Of course, it's much more fun to find out for yourself how, so I won't spoil your surprise. (Unless you're going to be my ally in some game, then I'll gladly let you in on the details. )

Hamish

Krusader:

no the rules are correct.. however keep in mind that to execute a tactical strike aircraft come down to ground/sea level, thus haa at the target location will do little to help you.

the altitude has little to do with city or province. en route airplane on a tactical strike mission will always fly at very high altitude. at the target they will go down to ground level and execute their mission.

when they are on a strategic bombardment mission then the altitude is set by the player himself.

Correct. which is why a common tactic is to put LAA in cities and HAA in provinces. So for example, if the enemy has to fly over 2 of my provinces to hit the city, I put HAA in all 3 provinces (including the province of the city being bombed) so I have 4 potential 'shots' at the airplanes.
Although HAA in cities would be helpful if being SB'd at higher altitudes, and LAA would be useful in provinces with armies that are subject to an OMA TAS strike.

My strategy:

- Some fighters on FC to protect my armies on the move. INT fighters to protect static armies and important cities.
- Loads and loads of HAA in all the provinces bordering my important industries. Not to mention the HAA in the industrial provinces themselves.
- LAA in the cities to take out the surviving TAS planes.
- Some AAA divisions to draw fire to them.
- And some dirty tricks I will keep secret. :lol:

Now where is that Vic74 setup?

25 fighter groups on FC mission with 25 figther groups on escort.
I don't have the battle report anymore but his line and veteran IL-4's actually broke :lol:

No answer yet. But I think most people agree (tactical) bombers are more effective than fighters.

Well here's your answer:
With 3000 points you can easily build 25 fighter groups with any tech. (31 Spitfire IA; 35 Bf-109E-3; 32 P-36C or 45 I-16) With those you should be able to stop any tactical strikers you can build with 3000 points. (16 Hampden; 13 He-111H-2; 12 B-18A or 15 IL-4)

So with 3000 points the fighters should win. The trouble starts when you have enough points to build 25 groups of MBs.

Hamish

Still... 1500 medium bombers, 25 air groups, against 4000 fighters, 50 air groups, is no contest :lol:

The advantage MB's have is they can be directed to do damage (offence) were as fighters are more a last resort (defence).
So while this works to stop an attack upon one of your airbases in mid air for example (my airbase did not get hit by the first wave and the MB's had about 50% casualties, it did get hit by the 2nd... 3rd... and 4th wave... )

I will probably choose MB's over fighters anyday.

i'd say get a higher scol rating, so people cant detect your airbase.

then again the game is quite far progressed by the time someone can field 4 full forces of bombers, over half the players are unlikely to ever get that far.

Hamish:

Okay, I've always kept this in the back of my mind. I have been playing for a while since this conversation (fought in 4 different wars, and have talked to a number of Victory! veterans), and I've tried different things with these AAA divisions, and can't figure any real use for them, up to now. I doubt we'll be allies in a game, any time soon (it's been over 14 months, and I don't know who you are any ways). So if you don't want to tell us on a public forum, I'd appreciate if you e-mail me.

Thanks,
Krysia's Krusader

* bump *

Krysia's Krusader,

AAA are good to put in the city with your air base and Infantry. To fend off any air drops. When your enemy does a TAS to get rid of the Infantry he will take damage from the AAA.

If you are doing a OMN AA then you can also use your AAA to help protect your troops form enemy TAS untel you can upgrade your troops and get fighter cover over them.

Okay...

But is this in early, or late game, that this tactic is generally used?

Early game, may be more likely, as people don't have the capability to construct many TAS capable aircraft.
Late game, I don't see it being as effecitve. Personally, I've gone in against 8 such divisions (which were combined with 8 other division types) with MB's and simply blew them off the map.

Maybe if they were on DD DMOG, inside spectacular fortification levels. Their DSM of 1.5, makes them so crunchy.

Early in the game.

Later in the game you just have to move your bases around and use LDB's, FC, INT., and troops.

FC or INT will turn back Bomber groups and Transports if they don't have an escort.

AAA in a DD and fortification of a city. Mixed with other troops, and with FC and or INT work well together.

When you do 2k or 3k airpoints of damage to your enemy aturn they leave you alone for a few turns.

I have a few questions.


If I have AA as a Fixed Defense in a city, and the city also has a Flak unit which has search lights, will the city AA be more effective at night because the Flak unit has searchlights?

Also, will the AA in the city be more effective with a flak unit present (increased accuracy)? Similar to a LDB assisting defending troops?

Unfortunately, army groups in a city do not contribute to the HAA/LAA rating of a city.

In the case of a TAS, the present armygroup will fire separately of HAA/LAA...

Hope this helps,

Norbert

Thanks

not the answer I wanted to hear though

Keep those questions coming. Always good for us to have to think about something, we normally take for granted.


nfbeerse, answered your first question, so I'll try your second one...



This got me thinking, so I verified all the national AAA divisions, and found that search light batteries were indeed listed in the unit composition. I'm quite certain that this is more for flavor (or the game is programmed for a small percentile chance to increase successful hits at night, if a AAA division is present).

From what I do know, AA fire is reduced at night - but then so is (strategic) bombing accuracy. All other types of night missions that I have performed, have never encountered AA fire. Wether it is possible or not to be fired upon, I'm not aware of. Perhaps I never got dtected by the enemy in order for him to do so (?).

Perhaps Russ can correct me...?

so if FLAK units are considered apart of the army and are independant of defenses, that would mean that they can utilise fortifications. How then would LDB's augment them?




Does that mean I can increae the effectiveness of an AA unit by having more LDB's present?

Are you refering to HAA/LAA battalions?
If so; yes, they do benefit from fortifications, but only in respect to a reduction of dammage from costal bombardment, strategic, and tactical strike bombing missions, that the fortification allows.

Are you refering to AAA divisions?
If so; then they are part of whatever other ground (not fixed defenses) units are present, and will benefit from whatever fortifications versus all types of attacks. LDB's would fight along side (calculated as an extra division within the stack), and add to the total defensive value of the stack.




You quoted from CHAPC/section 4.1/LDB's in the VICRULES folder.
Don't read too much into individual sentences, but instead try and take the whole paragraphs into account. The rest of it, pretty well explains how LDB's operate, in general.




From the same paragraph you quoted above, I'll answer with this quote...

"They (LDB's) have a fixed DSM of 2.0, a permanent experience level of "green" and a fixed Defensive Firepower Rating of 25. In combat situations, LDBs are grouped together as a single Local Defense rating and treated much like a regular division. If a regular army force is present, the Local Defense rating will temporary fight along with that force much like any other division."

So if you're refering to an AA division, then yes, if it is attacked through ground combat, the LDB's will add to its total defensive value.
If you're refering to HAA/LAA battalions, then no, but the LDB's will fight back trying to protect whatever other fixed defenses are present, from ground attacks.