Naval Combat Primer

[Locklyn]

Ali,

 

You shouldn't have to rerun ANZ, drop me a note and I'll send you the relevant info.

We shouldn't have to rerun the ANZ for the defensive systems either.

 

Also, and I've said this before, just exactly what does the Space Combat Bonus entail in combat?¨

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Thanks Pete!  Now we know why you've been quiet!  

 

Lots of useful info, would add to Hobnob's above though.

 

Can we request that the Weapon Range and Defensive bonus vis a vis DepLoc detail be added before the final document?

 

And, if the FOO & DOO options are confimed at the fleet level only, please could the FBP order process be modified so that changing the FOO & DOO for any Ship Class we're changing DL for; changes the FOOs & DOOs for ALL the Ship Classes at once?

 

Regards

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

FOO/DOO order settings are changed by formation rather than by ship designation - if you had two of your fleets in the same battle and each had different FOO orders for the same formation, one would be chosen. However, you might separate those fleets and want one of them to have its FOO and other to retain its FOO. If the code forced a global change on all formations each time you altered any formation, you would lose that ability

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ummm, no, we're pretty sure that doesn't make sense.....

 

Currently, DepLoc, FOO & DOO are assigned per ship class in each FBP - Assault, Carrier, Battle Line, whatever....

 

However, F&Ds are held as fleet level as you have described, so these multiple FOOs/DOOs are meaningless. We need a way to set a single pair of tactics at the fleet level - thus the requesting a way of changing all the FOOs & DOOs for a certain plan whenever we edit a single ship class entry.

 

Or, changing the FBP format and the input program with a new order, which is much more work.

 

If we want different fleets to have different FOOs/DOOs, then we give them different FBPs using the NENC command.....

 

In short, knowing that there's only one FOO or DOO combination for a fleet is fine, but we need a method of knowing what it is.

 

Using 16, or so, orders to change the FOO & DOO options for a fleet just before battle really isn't acceptable! Or!......

 

...............We just need to know that it's the FOO & DOO for the Assault class (listed first) that is used (and we ignore all the others) - and we can change that one.

 

Now - if we go for multiple FOOs/DOOs and the system is completely changed - that that's a different subject. But we need to know know how to set the FOO & DOO for our battles today. And again, another 16 orders isn't the answer.

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

[Locklyn]

Apart from agreeing with the Urlord, which I usually do I would also like to ask this:

 

It says that Fighters/Drones that have multi role capacity like my Combat Gunboats (500 tons, Impressive PDA Impressive Missile) add to the PD umbrella. By how much? Is it split down the middle for calculation that it adds 250 tons of PD and 250 tons of Missile or how is it calculated?

 

How are defensive items like EDAC and SFGs and so on that protect vs many different weapon types calculated tonnage wise? Is it tonnage/no of defenses = tonnage towards that specific weapon or what?

 

Cheers

/Locklyn

[RTGPete]

Thanks Pete!  Now we know why you've been quiet!  

 

Lots of useful info, would add to Hobnob's above though.

 

Can we request that the Weapon Range and Defensive bonus vis a vis DepLoc detail be added before the final document?

 

And, if the FOO & DOO options are confimed at the fleet level only, please could the FBP order process be modified so that changing the FOO & DOO for any Ship Class we're changing DL for; changes the FOOs & DOOs for ALL the Ship Classes at once?

 

Regards

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

FOO/DOO order settings are changed by formation rather than by ship designation - if you had two of your fleets in the same battle and each had different FOO orders for the same formation, one would be chosen. However, you might separate those fleets and want one of them to have its FOO and other to retain its FOO. If the code forced a global change on all formations each time you altered any formation, you would lose that ability

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ummm, no, we're pretty sure that doesn't make sense.....

 

Currently, DepLoc, FOO & DOO are assigned per ship class in each FBP - Assault, Carrier, Battle Line, whatever....

 

Assigned via formation orders, which refer to ship classes.

 

However, F&Ds are held as fleet level as you have described, so these multiple FOOs/DOOs are meaningless. We need a way to set a single pair of tactics at the fleet level - thus the requesting a way of changing all the FOOs & DOOs for a certain plan whenever we edit a single ship class entry.

 

Or, changing the FBP format and the input program with a new order, which is much more work.

 

If we want different fleets to have different FOOs/DOOs, then we give them different FBPs using the NENC command.....

 

In short, knowing that there's only one FOO or DOO combination for a fleet is fine, but we need a method of knowing what it is.

 

Using 16, or so, orders to change the FOO & DOO options for a fleet just before battle really isn't acceptable! Or!......

 

...............We just need to know that it's the FOO & DOO for the Assault class (listed first) that is used (and we ignore all the others) - and we can change that one.

 

Good idea.

 

Now - if we go for multiple FOOs/DOOs and the system is completely changed - that that's a different subject. But we need to know know how to set the FOO & DOO for our battles today. And again, another 16 orders isn't the answer.

 

Agree. However, saying you need 16 orders is not entirely true - that's an exaggerated example that is very unlikely. The Assault idea is a possibility.

 

In any event, I'm looking at a way to make the FOO/DOO settings easy and more meaningful. Will post when I get something more concrete.

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[RTGPete]

Apart from agreeing with the Urlord, which I usually do I would also like to ask this:

 

It says that Fighters/Drones that have multi role capacity like my Combat Gunboats (500 tons, Impressive PDA Impressive Missile) add to the PD umbrella. By how much? Is it split down the middle for calculation that it adds 250 tons of PD and 250 tons of Missile or how is it calculated?

 

Multirole Fighters/Drones add their point defense rating to the umbrella, and their missile or other offensive capability to offensive values.

 

How are defensive items like EDAC and SFGs and so on that protect vs many different weapon types calculated tonnage wise? Is it tonnage/no of defenses = tonnage towards that specific weapon or what?

 

EDAC and SFG's are just like the other defensive systems (that add to a single defensive area) except that they spread their values around to multiple areas -- less coverage per area, but they cover more than one.

Cheers

/Locklyn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Paradigm]

Agree.  However, saying you need 16 orders is not entirely true - that's an exaggerated example that is very unlikely.  The Assault idea is a possibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Anything more than 1 is unreasonable in my opinion.

[Paradigm]

EDAC and SFG's are just like the other defensive systems (that add to a single defensive area) except that they spread their values around to multiple areas -- less coverage per area, but they cover more than one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Can you give us an example with real numbers?

[RTGPete]

Agree.  However, saying you need 16 orders is not entirely true - that's an exaggerated example that is very unlikely.  The Assault idea is a possibility.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Anything more than 1 is unreasonable in my opinion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have already indicated that I'm looking into a better way to deal with FOO/DOO. It's always been more than one, and I'll likely come up with a way to make it much better all around.

[RTGPete]

EDAC and SFG's are just like the other defensive systems (that add to a single defensive area) except that they spread their values around to multiple areas -- less coverage per area, but they cover more than one.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Can you give us an example with real numbers?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Real numbers aren't real until the combat system is implemented in-game. However, it's a simple division of defense strength: if one defensive system provides 250,000 total defense value to one defense area, and EDAC covers five areas and happened to be otherwise identical to the first system, it would provide 50,000 to each of those areas. It's not as good in one area, but it covers five.

[hobknob]

I think you have it a bit backwards. The assault class should have very little to do with the FOO or the DOO. Fighters largely are located on Carriers and it is the Carrier class that should control fighter activities and the Drone class of ships should control the Drone activities.

 

Even using these conventions there may still be issues. I have fighters on assault ships that are used for a different purpose than those on carriers so if my assault ships act alone then I would want their FOO settings used. If the work in conjunction with carriers then I would want the Carriers FOO used. These may also all follow the same battle plan as well.

 

Also, what happens if your FOO is tied to Assault or any other position and you don't have any of that position in the fleet? Do you still use the settings or would you only follow the settings for the types of ships in the Fleet?

 

 

We also need to have some way of knowing what FOO will be used in multi empire engagements. On the defensive side I would really like to have all this stuff reside at the fleet level and stay there. This would allow the placing of different components in different fleets that use different settings.

 

[Paradigm]

Maybe the entire FOO/DOO thing should be scrapped. I don't see how it could work at the fleet level.

[hobknob]

I can see it working at the fleet level as long as you can only have one setting per battle plan. You won't have as much flexibility when you are on the offensive, but it would work. What concerns me is the combining of fleets in a multi fleet engagement and knowing what you different fleets will do.

 

For example:

 

At my WP defense I would have a fleet with fighter options to the best cover possible and that fleet fleet would hve the best interceptor and PD fighters as well as Hummers for defensive ratings.

 

I would have another fleet with my attack fighters that could be set to Deep strike or something without harming the interceptors.

 

My current understanding is that a multi fleet battle would just pick one of the FOO's and use it, but we don't know how that would work really. And what about multiple empires that all use fighters and may have different tactics in mind.

 

 

[Lord Xaar]

The only suggestion I have for the final document is that it includes the clarifications that have appeared on the boards over time. I think much of the document is already just a restatement of what could be gleaned through the boards; it's main purpose is to consolidate it to one place. Also to hopefully remove the sense of conjecture...

 

Stuff like the effect of Naval Leaders on fire control should be included. If other character classes effect things, I think those effects should be included in a general way (I don't think the formulas are necessary).

 

In any case we are glad to see the document out.

 

 

-LX

[Ur Lord Tedric]

 

...............We just need to know that it's the FOO & DOO for the Assault class (listed first) that is used (and we ignore all the others) - and we can change that one.

 

Good idea.

 

Now - if we go for multiple FOOs/DOOs and the system is completely changed - that that's a different subject.  But we need to know know how to set the FOO & DOO for our battles today.  And again, another 16 orders isn't the answer.

 

Agree.  However, saying you need 16 orders is not entirely true - that's an exaggerated example that is very unlikely.  The Assault idea is a possibility.

 

In any event, I'm looking at a way to make the FOO/DOO settings easy and more meaningful.  Will post when I get something more concrete.

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sorry Pete - anything negative will obviously get a more defensive response.

 

I didn't count the orders I postulated as necessary to change and came up with 16 from memory.........actually it is 17!!!

 

So - real example....

 

Currently I use a modification of the Standard Line and have changed about 5 or 6 of the Formations, given that I use 5 or 6 formations in my fleets. Given what I have just learned from the document I have no idea which of those formations is used to set the FOO/DOO for the fleet. It may well actually be one I haven't changed and is still 'Standard Attack' and 'Standard Attack' - and not what, quite reasonably, I have set Formation V-Carriers to

 

So, at the moment the system for setting those tactics is a bit broke. We need to know which Formation sets the FOO & DOO for the fleet, otherwise we are just loading F&Ds and just keeping our fingers crossed - which is not what the rules say we can do.

 

Please just tell us which Formation to change to set the fleet level tactic and we'll get right on it. And we can do it for multi-empire battles too......just like we've been advised to do with the ROE - which is in the document.

 

Regards

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

[Lord Uriel]

The only suggestion I have for the final document is that it includes the clarifications that have appeared on the boards over time.  I think much of the document is already just a restatement of what could be gleaned through the boards; it's main purpose is to consolidate it to one place.  Also to hopefully remove the sense of conjecture...

 

Stuff like the effect of Naval Leaders on fire control should be included.  If other character classes effect things, I think those effects should be included in a general way (I don't think the formulas are necessary).

 

In any case we are glad to see the document out.

 

 

-LX

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree with Lord Xaar. One complete document would be nice.