MadMartinB Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 makes sense. I am concerned that they die out fast. An example would be carriers in WWII. YOu could fly planes out to them. We do not have that luxury.. It would be nice if they could be stored in Cargo (even if it is a huge amount of cargo space) so that you could upload when destroyed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 An example would be carriers in WWII. YOu could fly planes out to them. We do not have that luxury.. But that's exactly what we do have! Fighters have to be flown out to them from a planetary base (the LC order) Or ferried out to them on other carriers....... However, to do it right, we do need a TC (Transfer Cargo order) to allow at least some of the items to be 'ferried' between fleets. However, given that we will have to have forward fuel dumps and the like, and that Colonial Beacons are relatively cheap, by having to OC to a bbase and then LC from it, it's not too onerous.... Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixitixl Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 Forgive this ignorant question, but is every empire researching either Drone of Fighter technology? I originally was not going to research either of them, but I have since changed my mind a few months ago. Both Drones and Fighters take up an incredible amount of resources and must be replenished when destroyed. Are they really worth researching? I would like to hear your opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 No idea as to their effect and worth Ix. One advantage is you can send them in from behind front lines. I have researched fighters but not done much with drones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damiano Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 The Answer my friend can be yes and no. Maybe half the Empires are researching fighters/drones as an option, the other half will almost certainly be researching anti fighter defences to counteract them. In other words it's an arms race to outbuild a possible opponents possible defences. My own opinion is to go for the Heavy CIDS route, as I played SNII and I know what the best defence plan was, and that was to stop every drone/fighter you could, otherwise you were DEAD. Of course if you are fighting someone who is using normal weapons then CIDS's are just so much wasted tonnage. It's finding the right balance of offence and defence that is the key. Everything else being equal, If you find an ally and trade tech with them you will be in a lot better position than if you start a war with the first person you meet. Damian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 The best thing about drones and fighters is that the launch platforms stay usefull for a very long time. With traditional weapons they are outdated with every advance. With fighters and drones you simply swap out the old fighters for newer ones and you are up to speed again. The down side to fighters and drones is that you can strip them off of an attacker and leave them very vulnerable. This forces the drone/fighter user to have some sort of supply lines available to resupply. These supply lines are less important to the direct fire weapon user. Drones and fighters are very versatile and everyone should get at least basic drones and fighters. If you don't have the propper protection from them they will still kill you dead. I just wouldn't limit a force to all drone or fighter weapon platforms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Me, I'm researching both sides of the coin. It's better to be safe than sorry. Lets not forget, they can come in quite handy should your homeworld be attacked. You can build and replenish them quicker than an attacking fleet could replenish theirs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Are you sure that drones and fighters can't be loaded into cargo? Why can't they? If I find some drones during explores they should pop into cargo like anything else so why can't you transport them as cargo. I obviously haven't tried this, but this recent comment was the first time I had heard it suggested that fighters and drones couldn't be carried as cargo. In fact previous discussions were centered on how you would get them out of cargo and into the racks between engagements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 Are you sure that drones and fighters can't be loaded into cargo? Why can't they? If I find some drones during explores they should pop into cargo like anything else so why can't you transport them as cargo. I obviously haven't tried this, but this recent comment was the first time I had heard it suggested that fighters and drones couldn't be carried as cargo. In fact previous discussions were centered on how you would get them out of cargo and into the racks between engagements. Each item in the game is given a cargo type which is used to determine what carries it. This is especially critical for Load Cargo orders, post-combat losses and naval reorganizations. Fighters load into Fighter Bays and don't spill over into Cargo Bays--it's one or the other (Fighter Bays in this case). I am considering adding a new item type to allow for crated Fighters and Drones. A different item would be needed for each Fighter/Drone type, and it would load into Cargo Bays. A new order would be needed to allow for the uncrating and assembly of the stored Fighters/Drones. They would not launch on their own in combat as they would be just regular cargo like Coal, Iron or other regular cargo-type items. Additionally, they would not automatically uncrate and refill existing Fighter Bays or Drone Racks--there is a question of which ones to uncrate, and in any event an automatic system would too strongly benefit carriers on the defensive. This is a significant weakness of carriers: if an attacker can wipe your racks/bays in one engagement, he has gained clear sailing for any followup forces. You would need to resupply just at the right time, an unlikely proposition. You could have easily resupplied if over a friendly world, via Load Cargo, but a crating system would make deep space resupply missions a reality. You would still be well advised to create a forward resupply base, however: even if you did bring up cargo ships loaded with spare Fighters and Drones, and transferred them into your battle fleet (followed by an uncrate/assembly order), moving the cargo ships back out again could cause trouble with any other items in the fleet cargo holds (they would take said items with them). A fleet-to-fleet specific cargo transfer order is unlikely for a number of reasons, making forward bases the way to go when dealing with complicated cargo transfers. Note that all of this is just under consideration, and is not coded yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 Each item in the game is given a cargo type which is used to determine what carries it. This is especially critical for Load Cargo orders, post-combat losses and naval reorganizations. Fighters load into Fighter Bays and don't spill over into Cargo Bays--it's one or the other (Fighter Bays in this case). Ok, now I'm confused...I think. If I had a ship with only cargo bays and it performed an EXPL order and found some Fighters, I would not be able to pick up the Fighters (thus losing them), because I need Fighter Bays? Does this also apply to Drones and Fuel? Now regarding, restocking your Fighters and Drones, I have an idea. We already have a "Resupply Order." So can't we just expand on this idea? Right now, when we move into a space with a Fleet on Resupply Duty, it fills up our Fuel Tankage as much as possible with Fuel (I'm also assuming this would work with Improved Fuel, Advanced Fuel, etc...?). So, why not expand its duty to Resuppling Fighters and Drones too. The Resupply Fleet would have Fuel Tankage (with the type of Fuel you need), Fighter Bays (with the type of Fighters you want to be resupplied with) and Drone Racks (with the type of Drones you want to be resupplied with). I mean, it is a "Resupply Order", why limit it to just fuel. What do you think Pete? <say yes...yesss>. Using mind control powers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 If I had a ship with only cargo bays and it performed an EXPL order and found some Fighters, I would not be able to pick up the Fighters (thus losing them), because I need Fighter Bays? Does this also apply to Drones and Fuel? Now regarding, restocking your Fighters and Drones, I have an idea. We already have a "Resupply Order." So can't we just expand on this idea? Right now, when we move into a space with a Fleet on Resupply Duty, it fills up our Fuel Tankage as much as possible with Fuel (I'm also assuming this would work with Improved Fuel, Advanced Fuel, etc...?). So, why not expand its duty to Resuppling Fighters and Drones too. The Resupply Fleet would have Fuel Tankage (with the type of Fuel you need), Fighter Bays (with the type of Fighters you want to be resupplied with) and Drone Racks (with the type of Drones you want to be resupplied with). I mean, it is a "Resupply Order", why limit it to just fuel. What do you think Pete? <say yes...yesss>. Using mind control powers. That's right, you would need Fighter Bays to pick up Fighters, or Fuel Tankage to obtain Fuel from a successful EXPL mission. The method is identical to how Load Cargo works in every respect. The coding for the FUEL order was fairly complex. At this point I'm not sure if I have the stomach to do it again for Fighters and Drones - there are numerous types of those items, and in any event it would require Fighter Bays to carry in more Fighters. I'll look at this issue more in detail when I've got some more coding time (Fighter/Drone Resupply versus crates). As it happens, I was able to put in a lot of very cool things for this turn cycle...you'll get a report on all of that with this turn result Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 Along this line, what if some carriers were destroyed in a battle and more fighters remained than were bays enough to carry them>? Would the figs die? IF so, then an uncrate/assemble order placed at a time where available space was low would spell the death of much material. This would be a natural delay to the re-supply process and likely good game design if automatic resupply of figs us undesirable as you cannot simply give several uncrate orders during a battle turn and be guaranteed that there will be slots for them to fit into. Perhaps if the ship were given "launchable flags" noting how many figs could be launched based on available fig bays, so figs could still be carried in cargo bays, but not deployed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AKO Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 Thanks Russ & Pete, Very usefull information. My only remark would be if some information about damage and damage control after a battle (for the surviving ships) could be added. This was quite a fierce subject in one of the threads on the old board, and it is quite important in how we will build and reshape our navy. Kind regards, Andre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 Now this is why one shouldn't venture too far out from ones homesystem...logistics alone will kill ya Nah fortify the three closest systems and make a fortress of your home system instead, all these scary aliens certainly are dangerous and have a wide assortment of diseases that would devastate our frail Gremloid physiology! Luckily it seems our region is totally devoid of other races apart from these Imperial Remnants we keep finding in every orbit /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octagon999 Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 For the LIFE of me, I cannot understand the logic behind fighters and drones not being able to be carried as cargo. Not launched, but carried. It makes NO sense to me. Sorry to be so undiplomatic, but this one escapes me. You should be able to crate up both and ship them as cargo. Period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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