Underground Cities

[Magus666]

So, now Im heading into the "what the f..." realm. Its not a big deal, but my people are a Subterranean race (as defined in the lifeform setup) and prefer to live in our underground tunnels and warrens. After a few turns, I have a small handful of Horizon Techs, including 2nd Gen Civil Engineering, as well as Improved CMs and Subterranean Installations. I have Domed Cities. But...still no sign of the Underground City.

 

I know that Underground Cities give some bonuses, as does Subterraean Installations, Underwater Installations, Aquatic Cities, etc. But, wouldnt it make sense for Subterranean or Aquatic races to START the game having these technologies, since thats allready where they live?

[hobknob]

Yes it makes some sense, but no you don't get to start with Subterranean Cities. Maybe in the next incarnation of the game.

 

[ali-t-akua]

So, now Im heading into the "what the f..." realm. Its not a big deal, but my people are a Subterranean race (as defined in the lifeform setup) and prefer to live in our underground tunnels and warrens. After a few turns, I have a small handful of Horizon Techs, including 2nd Gen Civil Engineering, as well as Improved CMs and Subterranean Installations. I have Domed Cities. But...still no sign of the Underground City.

 

I know that Underground Cities give some bonuses, as does Subterraean Installations, Underwater Installations, Aquatic Cities, etc. But, wouldnt it make sense for Subterranean or Aquatic races to START the game having these technologies, since thats allready where they live?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe your race is so advanced that they live in Subterranean Suburbs.

[General Miles Avatar]

So, now Im heading into the "what the f..." realm. Its not a big deal, but my people are a Subterranean race (as defined in the lifeform setup) and prefer to live in our underground tunnels and warrens. After a few turns, I have a small handful of Horizon Techs, including 2nd Gen Civil Engineering, as well as Improved CMs and Subterranean Installations. I have Domed Cities. But...still no sign of the Underground City.

 

I know that Underground Cities give some bonuses, as does Subterraean Installations, Underwater Installations, Aquatic Cities, etc. But, wouldnt it make sense for Subterranean or Aquatic races to START the game having these technologies, since thats allready where they live?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You will need advanced construction materials for those sub. cities.

[Magus666]

Soooo....Im going to need better materials to put a city underground, than I need to put a DOME over one? SN:RotE Physics strikes again....

[Hughestrog]

Soooo....Im going to need better materials to put a city underground, than I need to put a DOME over one?   SN:RotE Physics strikes again....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

And you never get used to the weirdness!

[WKE235]

Soooo....Im going to need better materials to put a city underground, than I need to put a DOME over one?   SN:RotE Physics strikes again....

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Makes sense to me. An underground city will require significant plating, support struts, etcetera ... to ensure the walls above are held up and do not collaspe. On the other hand, a domed city can be accomplished with more limited support struts and "fabric" non-permeable membranes (to keep the air in) between the struts. A LOT less material, not as heavy so less need for advanced materials, etcetera....

[Magus666]

I suppose, in the end, it depends on exactly what you are envisioning when you use the terms. In the real world, we have been building underground pretty much since we began building. Not entire cities, but expansive mines and other things, shoring up the walls with beams of nothing more than wood. We have only been building large domed structures (like the Biosphere or the Mall of America) for maybe 50 years, when more advanced, stronger and lighter, building materials became available.

 

As a race of subterranean insectoids, the Formians live in "underground cities" comprised of vast networks of tunnels and chambers. This is the concept I was working on. For this, Advanced Construction Materials is rather silly. Now...if you wanted to talk about huge vaulted caverns, 100 miles across...THAT would require some serious material science to support.

 

So, all in all, once again we are left with the same situation...just go ahead and CALL it what you like, you just dont get the benefit of it. My people live in underground cities...but they just arent "Underground Cities". They are no different from regular Cities in the same way that Subterranean Fortresses and Aquatic Fortresses are no different than regular Fortresses.

[General Miles Avatar]

I suppose, in the end, it depends on exactly what you are envisioning when you use the terms. In the real world, we have been building underground pretty much since we began building. Not entire cities, but expansive mines and other things, shoring up the walls with beams of nothing more than wood. We have only been building large domed structures (like the Biosphere or the Mall of America) for maybe 50 years, when more advanced, stronger and lighter, building materials became available.

 

As a race of subterranean insectoids, the Formians live in "underground cities" comprised of vast networks of tunnels and chambers. This is the concept I was working on. For this, Advanced Construction Materials is rather silly. Now...if you wanted to talk about huge vaulted caverns, 100 miles across...THAT would require some serious material science to support.

 

So, all in all, once again we are left with the same situation...just go ahead and CALL it what you like, you just dont get the benefit of it. My people live in underground cities...but they just arent "Underground Cities". They are no different from regular Cities in the same way that Subterranean Fortresses and Aquatic Fortresses are no different than regular Fortresses.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That fact that you are a subterranean race is already factored in. You spent points

on it didnt you? Hence when you do aquire subterranean structures your bonus

will be EVEN better. Your looking at it the wrong way.

[Magus666]

That fact that you are a subterranean race is already factored in. You spent points

on it didnt you? Hence when you do aquire subterranean structures your bonus

will be EVEN better.

 

That's an interesting point...but is it really true? Yes, I spent the points to be a subterranean type at setup(as well as things like Superior Tunneling ability). And yes, I know that that is already factored in to such things as Colonization and Defensive bonuses. But does it actually improve the bonus granted by Subterranean Installations or Subterranean City? IE, lets say that being a Subterranean type gives a 5% Defensive bonus, and that Subterranean Installation technology (available to all types) also grants a 5% bonus. If I have BOTH, do my Subterranean Installations give me a 7% (for example) bonus instead of the standard 5%, giving a net 12% bonus, instead of only 10% ?

[hobknob]

What makes you think you get any colonization bonus for being a sub lifeform. My understanding is that those traits are stictly ground combat stuff.

 

To my understanding cities only effect attrition and shold not be affected by some sort of lifeform choices.

 

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

What makes you think you get any colonization bonus for being a sub lifeform.  My understanding is that those traits are stictly ground combat stuff.

 

To my understanding cities only effect attrition and shold not be affected by some sort of lifeform choices.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sub lifeform doesnt give anything, its just for flavor.

 

Superior Tunneling is your one allowable Type C combat bonus, and it gives a bunch of ground combat bonuses. In all likelyhood it has the same impact as Superior Swimming other than roleplay flavor.

 

Neither have anything to do with sub cities. Don't overthink it, its just a bunch of unassociated bonuses.

[Magus666]

What makes you think you get any colonization bonus for being a sub lifeform.

 

Well....the + in the CB column next to "subterranean arthropod" in the Lifeform Design section of the rules. That kinda indicated that there was a colonization bonus for being that type of lifeform. It is true that the "subterranean" and "aquatic" varieties of the different lifeform types have the same cost and show the same general bonuses as the base types. But the varieties are not JUST for flavor, since glider and winged types have different costs and different base bonuses. At the very LEAST, they are prereqs for the later Type C combat abilities, Superior Tunneling and Superior Swimming.

 

As for what things SHOULD do, well that is not really related to what they DO, as is often the case. But there is certainly some logic behind saying that a Subterranean race should get a better bonus from a Subterranean Installation or Subterranean City, than say, an Flyer type. It's NATIVE to them so they would instinctively know how to use it better. The same is true for Aquatic species, and Aquatic Installations or Cities. I would simply EXPECT Mermen to have better undersea cities than Birdpeople.

 

Don't overthink it, its just a bunch of unassociated bonuses

 

As for overthinking it...I wasnt. I didnt suggest that there WAS any connection. I was quoting General Miles post when he said that:

 

That fact that you are a subterranean race is already factored in. You spent points

on it didnt you? Hence when you do aquire subterranean structures your bonus

will be EVEN better

 

I inferred from the "EVEN better" part that he is suggesting that being a subterranean type DOES increases whatever bonus one gets from subterranean installations and cities, and was asking if this was, in fact, the case.

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

For me it comes down to questioning if Aquatic Retile with Superior Swimming is any different than Sub. Reptile with Superior Tunneling. Both have a net cost of 150 points and provide identical +/- bonuses. Does Tunneling impact something deeper in the code such as Subteranean tactical ratings, versus Swimming boosting Amphib or Naval ratings? Or is it just "flavor"?

 

Good question for the Oracle.... Eternus?

[General Miles Avatar]

What makes you think you get any colonization bonus for being a sub lifeform.  My understanding is that those traits are stictly ground combat stuff.

 

To my understanding cities only effect attrition and shold not be affected by some sort of lifeform choices.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I dont think its only for combat associated bonuses. take for example the sub.

arthopod + in CB and ++++ in DB which would #1 help with colonization

and #2 help with the lifeforms defensive bonus which does come into effect in

ground combat.