WKE235 Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 We intertupt your normal broadcast for an important announcement from Apshai Central Command. We now turn to a live broadcast at the Central Command headquarters.... The screen switches over to the sight of a Apshai Arachnid moving towards the front of an auditorium filled with jostling reporters of various races. The caption is displaying Admiral Krk-kac-tck, Commander of Home Space Defense forces. The Admiral reaches the front and turns to begin speaking to the assembled reporters. Good Morning. Today at 01:42 Nikula Standard Time, a force of Bashkar ships attempted to breach the WP from the Torrey star system into Nikula. The Bashkar forces consisted of 2 Battle Monitors of just over 2 million tons each, and one War Cruiser massing 1.4 Million tons. As you can see on the overhead Monitors (numerous reporters turn various eyes or appendages upwards), Each Monitor contained a complement of 3500 Attack fighters and 83 Heavy Pulse Lasers (max optimal beam strength of 2,629,440). The War Cruiser complement was an additional 800 Attack Fighters, along with 367 Forst Cannon and 19 Heavy Pulse Lasers (just under 800,000 optimal). The War Cruiser was also the command ship for the fleet containing over 2000 differing units of Battle Display and other various Fire Control systems. The Admiral pauses for a moment to turn to the next page of his text. Defending the Warp point was a fleet consisting of 1 Girru class Battle Cruiser (1.2 Mtons), 3 Dahak III Strike Cruisers (630 Kton each), 1 HodgePodge Frontier Cruiser (at 250 Ktons), and 61 support vessels massing about 1 Kton each. The defense force relied primarily on Light Plasma Hellbores (1200 for 7,128,000 optimal damage) as their weapon with support of varying weapons from the HodgePodge. The Admiral pauses for a moment to turn to the next page of his text. It is my duty to inform you... The admiral pauses once more to take a breath. The tension in the room seems ready to burst with every reporter leaning forward, waiting on the next words ... It is my duty to inform you that the Bashkar forces were wiped from the sky with minimal Apshai losses! (Pandemonium starts to ensue in the room with reporters using their various devices to contact their news rooms .. and the Admiral attempts to continue). Total Apshai losses were 23 support vessals and the Frontier Cruiser Hodgepodge. The remaining Apshai ships suffered no damage. (Noises in the room continue to grow until the Admiral cannot be heard for the moment. The screen breaks back to the Broadcaster). Well, exciting news to for the Apshai. We will attempt to return to the news conference once things settle down a bit. Just a moment .. I'm getting some more information about the battle. It appears the War Cruiser also contained 15 troop bearthings. Adding that to the 5 lost when the Corvetter "Resolute" came out from hiding behind enemy lines and destroyed an undefended Bashkar Troop Transport, and the Bashkar may have lost up to 20 units of ground troops as well. This brings the total of destroyed Bashkar shipping reported to the media to around 7,000,000 tons, along with under 8000 attack fighters, and up to 20 ground units (lost in space), while on the Apshai side they have lost only less than 2,000,000 tons in ships. More on this stunning victory after a brief commercial break.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Well done! Nicely written! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Congratulations are in order for your victory but we are concerned the what was said by RTG that larger ships are favored in space combat may not nessecarily be entirely accurate. It is all too clear at present time and for quite a ways into the future, due to the pace of technology advancement, that smaller 'cannon fodder' ship will dominate battles. Surely there will be a need for the BIG ships with the big guns but this requirement for 'screening' ships will undoubtably make for fleet engagements in the thousands of ships which is what I think RTG was trying to get away from in the first place. can you imagine a Galaxy embroiled in war where there are hundreds of battles with litterally thousands and thousands of ships involved? I forsee many agonizing turn processing days for RTG Its already evident in the lack of the narritives that accompanied previous battles. Perhaps in the future there will be technology that will allow attacking fleets to 'bypass' obvious non-threats like those unarmed screens and target the ships that matter. When that happens the screen will go the way of the Do Do. Until that time we see no other alternative then to build our own massive screen force as Im sure other players will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashkar Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Well done! Nicely written! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nicely written, you bet. Well done, hardly. This is 100% in line with your observations that at this stage of the game the space combat system is broken. The larger fleet had 6x fire control, superior leader characters and 7800 fighters vs a fire control rating of 1 and ZERO fighters and negligible CIDS, and large amounts of chaff junk ships. The term "fire control" simply does not equate to the term "target acquisition" and to believe that 3 monitor class ships with decent fire contol could only seem to choose 29 pieces of chaff and a single cruiser is completely absurd. WKE's "win" is ... dubious at best, even he is astounded at the outcome of the results. and yes, i'm whining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Miles Avatar Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Actually the attacking ships didnt have the number of weapons I would expect to see on ships of that size. The figthers on the other hand should have made more of a difference. Did they even launch? bakshar check out your fleet formation orders. I hope you didnt have them on no launch. having so few weapons even more spread out by superior FC may have had a deterimental effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted January 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Well done! Nicely written! <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nicely written, you bet. Well done, hardly. This is 100% in line with your observations that at this stage of the game the space combat system is broken. The larger fleet had 6x fire control, superior leader characters and 7800 fighters vs a fire control rating of 1 and ZERO fighters and negligible CIDS, and large amounts of chaff junk ships. The term "fire control" simply does not equate to the term "target acquisition" and to believe that 3 monitor class ships with decent fire contol could only seem to choose 29 pieces of chaff and a single cruiser is completely absurd. WKE's "win" is ... dubious at best, even he is astounded at the outcome of the results. and yes, i'm whining. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Norm has mentioned some of the same things I pointed out in my Concordium / NSI battle with the Vindicator Battleship. Many back and forth responses on that so long ago. Even then I discussed my own disappointment in how could my Battleship would ignore Million ton Cruisers to fire on 1000 ton ships. So while Norm an I may disagree on some things, in this one item we are in agreement. We both dislike the target acquisition processing in the game. With that said, while I may dislike the way target acquisistion works, I did redesigned my ships and fleets to work within the rules as RTG has them, to take advantage of the rules if possible. Hey, if you can't beat'em, join'em. I doubt the rules are going to change now. So I changed. I've had numerous off board discussions on ways to both use screens and defeat screens with minimal losses, even using current low tech items (I hope to test my theories on defeating screens on the NSI soon .. IF the NSI is still playing). Adaptability is the key. I changed once I learned how the game plays out. Norm did not. Lasltly, I will agree with Norm -- the loss of only one Cruiser (and the smallest one as well) was very lucky on my part. I was thinking that I was going to lose at least three Cruisers in the battle, maybe even four. Damn lucky I lost only the smallest ship. Just like my luck running into that Light Transport with my Corvette behind the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashkar Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Actually the attacking ships didnt have the number of weapons I would expect to see on ships of that size. The figthers on the other hand should have made more of a difference. Did they even launch? bakshar check out your fleet formation orders. I hope you didnt have them on no launch. having so few weapons even more spread out by superior FC may have had a deterimental effect. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Set to Standard Attack. Sad. for those of you wondering, here's the BatRep. Decide for yourself: ** NAVAL BATTLE REPORT ** ----- NIKULA [ M (Red) 7 V ] [single Star] - Warp Point 257 ----- The Bashkar Empire #2744 Total tonnage: 5,602,333 Base Fire Control: 6 [38,098,000 bridge] Apshai #3343 Total tonnage: 3,505,310 Base Fire Control: 1 [2,505,000 bridge] ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** The Bashkar Empire # 2744 [A Black Hole] Fleet 3015 [ROE: X] *Englobe* (Fleet Tonnage: 5,602,333) Cargo Bays: ... 20,000 Troop Berthings: ... 15 Fighter Bays: ... 78 ... Fleet Admiral Vaporizer ... Agent 00x Security Bot ... Field Marshal Cybertron VII Major Terminator XXVII ... Admiral Vaporizer XXVIII ... Explorer V-ger XL ... Archpriest Morpheus XLII 7,800 Attack Fighter --------------------[Deploy Location 7] 1 WC Sentinel Amp (War Cruiser - 1,416,333 tons [each])------------------------- Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Nimble .. Sensors: Groping .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Average 13 Condenser Beam (Cold) .... 17,133 Energy Dispersion Armor Coating .... 8 Fighter Bay .... 367 Frost Cannon (Cold) .... 19 Heavy Pulse Laser (Coherent Beam) .... 20 Light Pressor Beam (Gravitonic) .... 500 Mk I Deflector .... 100 Mk II Flux Capacitor .... 2,785 Pulse Laser CIDS --------------------[Deploy Location 7] 2 BM Sentinel II (Monitor - 2,093,000 tons [each])------------------------------ Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Lumbering .. Sensors: Average .. Shields: Feeble .. Structural Integrity: Sturdy 60,200 Energy Dispersion Armor Coating .... 70 Fighter Bay .... 166 Heavy Pulse Laser (Coherent Beam) .... 61,400 Laser CIDS .... 54 Mk I Deflector .... 1,974 Mk I Flux Capacitor .... 5,292 Mk I Force Shield .... 697,000 Titanium Composite Armor .... 10 Type A Black Sphere Generator ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** Apshai # 3343 [A Star With One Multi-Faceted Insect Eye In The Center And 8 Insect Legs Reaching Out From The Star, All On A Blood Red Background] 910th Defense Force [ROE: W] *Standard Line* (Fleet Tonnage: 3,501,410) Cargo Bays: ... 30,000 ... --------------------[Deploy Location 1] 40 CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons [each])----------------------------------- Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Moderate .. Sensors: Average .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Average 40 Light Beam Laser (Coherent Beam) --------------------[Deploy Location 1] 21 FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons [each])--------------------------------- Fire Control: Minimal .. Maneuverability: Slow .. Sensors: Blind .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Average --------------------[Deploy Location 1] 1 BC Girru (Battle Cruiser - 1,200,000 tons [each])----------------------------- Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Moderate .. Sensors: Oblivious .. Shields: Feeble .. Structural Integrity: Sturdy 600 Light Plasma Hellbore .... 1,500 Mk I Force Shield .... 147,000 Titanium Composite Armor --------------------[Deploy Location 1] 3 SCA Dahak III (Strike Cruiser - 634,000 tons [each])-------------------------- Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Moderate .. Sensors: Oblivious .. Shields: Feeble .. Structural Integrity: Sturdy 900 Light Plasma Hellbore .... 2,250 Mk I Force Shield .... 240,000 Titanium Composite Armor --------------------[Deploy Location 2] 1 FC HodgePodge1 (Frontier Cruiser - 254,410 tons [each])----------------------- Fire Control: Fair .. Maneuverability: Clumsy .. Sensors: Blind .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Average 245 4cm Gatling Gauss Gun CIDS .... 408 6cm Gatling CIDS .... 125 Blaster CIDS .... 25 Energy Sapper Torpedo (Energy Absorber) .... 59 Frost Cannon (Cold) .... 23 Medium Beam Laser (Coherent Beam) .... 10 Medium P-Cannon .... 13 Mk II Bore Torpedo (Missile) .... 2 Mk II Heavy Torpedo (Missile) .... 8 Mk II Long Lance Torpedo (Missile) .... 1 Type A Black Sphere Generator --------------------[Deploy Location 2] 21 CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons [each])--------------------------------------- Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Moderate .. Sensors: Groping .. Shields: Feeble .. Structural Integrity: Sturdy 63 Light P-Cannon .... 84 Mk I Force Shield .... 8,400 Titanium Composite Armor ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** Apshai # 3343 [A Star With One Multi-Faceted Insect Eye In The Center And 8 Insect Legs Reaching Out From The Star, All On A Blood Red Background] 2009th Guard [ROE: W] *Column Attack* (Fleet Tonnage: 3,900) --------------------[Deploy Location 7] 1 CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons [each])---------------------------------------- Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Moderate .. Sensors: Groping .. Shields: Feeble .. Structural Integrity: Sturdy 3 Light P-Cannon .... 4 Mk I Force Shield .... 400 Titanium Composite Armor ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** -------------------------------------------------- DepLoc 7 ------------------------------------------------------------ **DESTROYED** [14th] BM Sentinel II (Monitor - 2,093,000 tons) [integrity: 4,333,500] [shields: 793,800] (Green, Timid) 20 Advanced Battle Display, 20 Battle Imaging System, 30,100 Energy Dispersion Armor Coating 20 FCS-1 Archer Fire Control, 25 FFS-1 Fleet Formation Scanner, 35 Fighter Bay, 20 Fuel Shuttle 179,000 Fuel Tankage, 83 Heavy Pulse Laser, 30,700 Laser CIDS, 20 Laser Communications Gear 27 Mk I Deflector, 987 Mk I Flux Capacitor, 2,646 Mk I Force Shield, 17 Mk I Long Range Sensor 30 Mk I Mass Detector Sensor, 4 Mk I Nuclear Engine, 10 Mk II Computer System, 2 Mk II Jump Survey Sensor 1 Nuclear Transwarp Drive, 80 Survey Lander, 348,500 Titanium Composite Armor, 5 Type A Black Sphere Generator 50 Type A Science Lab Coherent Beam: 2,629,440 Black Sphere: 0.059, Deflectors: 0.006, Displacement: 0.028, Flux Capacitance: 0.235, Meson Web: 0.143 Phase Inversion: 0.143, Point Defense: 8.186, Reflective Coating: 0.143, Sensors: 0.237, Tachyon Grid: 0.143 Thermal Regulation: 0.143 **DESTROYED** [10th] WC Sentinel Amp (War Cruiser - 1,416,333 tons) [integrity: 1,151,333] (Green, Timid) 480 Advanced Battle Display, 540 Battle Imaging System, 20,000 Cargo Bay, 13 Condenser Beam 17,133 Energy Dispersion Armor Coating, 540 FCS-1 Archer Fire Control, 450 FFS-1 Fleet Formation Scanner 8 Fighter Bay, 367 Frost Cannon, 140,000 Fuel Tankage, 19 Heavy Pulse Laser, 502 Laser Communications Gear 20 Light Pressor Beam, 500 Mk I Deflector, 10 Mk I Mass Detector Sensor, 100 Mk II Flux Capacitor 4,250 Mk II Fusion Engine, 6 Mk II Jump Survey Sensor, 1 Nuclear Transwarp Drive, 2,785 Pulse Laser CIDS 15 Troop Berthing Coherent Beam: 601,920, Cold: 190,080, Gravitonic: 17,600 Deflectors: 0.176, Displacement: 0.014, Flux Capacitance: 0.070, Maneuverability: 6.001, Meson Web: 0.120 Phase Inversion: 0.120, Point Defense: 11.407, Reflective Coating: 0.120, Sensors: 0.112, Tachyon Grid: 0.120 Thermal Regulation: 0.120 **DESTROYED** [27th] BM Sentinel II (Monitor - 2,093,000 tons) [integrity: 4,333,500] [shields: 793,800] (Green, Timid) ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** -------------------------------------------------- DepLoc 1 ------------------------------------------------------------ SCA Dahak III (Strike Cruiser - 634,000 tons) [integrity: 1,101,200] [shields: 225,000] (Green, Timid) 50 Fuel Shuttle, 60,000 Fuel Tankage, 300 Light Plasma Hellbore, 750 Mk I Force Shield, 640 Mk I Fusion Engine 100 Mk I Medium Range Sensor, 100 Mk II Computer System, 2 Mk III Jump Survey Sensor, 1 Nuclear Transwarp Drive 80,000 Titanium Composite Armor Plasma: 1,425,600 Maneuverability: 1.009, Sensors: 0.078 SCA Dahak III (Strike Cruiser - 634,000 tons) [integrity: 1,101,200] [shields: 225,000] (Green, Timid) SCA Dahak III (Strike Cruiser - 634,000 tons) [integrity: 1,101,200] [shields: 225,000] (Green, Timid) BC Girru (Battle Cruiser - 1,200,000 tons) [integrity: 2,075,000] [shields: 450,000] (Green, Timid) 100 Fuel Shuttle, 110,000 Fuel Tankage, 600 Light Plasma Hellbore, 1,500 Mk I Force Shield 1,200 Mk I Fusion Engine, 130 Mk I Medium Range Sensor, 200 Mk II Computer System, 3 Mk III Jump Survey Sensor 1 Nuclear Transwarp Drive, 147,000 Titanium Composite Armor Plasma: 2,851,200 Maneuverability: 1.000, Sensors: 0.054 The Bashkar Empire Page 3 of 56 Friday, December 31, 2004 2744 CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) 100 Fuel, 1 Light Beam Laser, 1 Light Magnetic Grapple, 1 Mk I Computer System, 1 Mk I Short Range Sensor 1 Mk II Computer System, 1 Mk III Nuclear Engine, 1 Mk III Nuclear Jump Drive Coherent Beam: 220, Gravitonic: 264 Maneuverability: 1.000, Point Defense: 0.001, Sensors: 0.250 CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) 1 Mk II Nuclear Engine, 1 Type A Science Lab Maneuverability: 0.454 FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [1st] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [2nd] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [3rd] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [5th] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [6th] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [7th] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [9th] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [11st] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [12nd] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [13rd] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [16th] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [17th] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [19th] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [20th] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [21st] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [22nd] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [23rd] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [25th] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [26th] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [28th] CO Junker 4 (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 1,000] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [29th] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [30th] FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) [integrity: 1,100] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) 400 Fuel Tankage, 3 Light P-Cannon, 4 Mk I Force Shield, 6 Mk I Fusion Engine, 2 Mk I Short Range Sensor 3 Mk II Computer System, 1 Mk II Nuclear Jump Drive, 400 Titanium Composite Armor Plasma: 3,300 Maneuverability: 1.538, Sensors: 0.128 CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [4th] FC HodgePodge1 (Frontier Cruiser - 254,410 tons) [integrity: 166,910] (Green, Timid) 245 4cm Gatling Gauss Gun CIDS, 408 6cm Gatling CIDS, 125 Blaster CIDS, 9 Burst Mine Rack 30,000 Cargo Bay, 25 Energy Sapper Torpedo, 59 Frost Cannon, 40,000 Fuel Tankage, 1 Fusion Transwarp Drive 4 Heavy Magnetic Grapple, 23 Medium Beam Laser, 10 Medium P-Cannon, 13 Mk II Bore Torpedo 10 Mk II Computer System, 2 Mk II Heavy Torpedo, 8 Mk II Long Lance Torpedo, 150 Mk II Nuclear Engine 102 Space Mine Rack, 14 Survey Lander, 1 Type A Black Sphere Generator, 1 Type A Universal Translator Device 17 Type B Science Lab Coherent Beam: 30,360, Cold: 25,960, EnergyAbsorber: 11,000, Gravitonic: 73,920, Mines: 31,680 Missile: 76,800, Plasma: 44,000 Black Sphere: 0.098, Maneuverability: 0.294, Point Defense: 0.515 **DESTROYED** [8th] CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [15th] CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [18th] CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) **DESTROYED** [24th] CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) CO Wasp (Corvette - 3,900 tons) [integrity: 6,180] [shields: 1,200] (Green, Timid) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted January 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Please note the design of the FS Junker1 (Fleet Scout - 1,100 tons) ship -- [integrity: 1,100] 1 Mk II Nuclear Engine, 1 Type A Science Lab. That's right, I strapped engines onto Type A Science Labs (I found in explores), and launched them to the front. No weapons. No fuel tanks. No jump drives. No computers. Basically flying bricks. And as you can see, they proved quite effective as screens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashkar Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 Adaptability is the key. I changed once I learned how the game plays out. Norm did not. Lasltly, I will agree with Norm -- the loss of only one Cruiser (and the smallest one as well) was very lucky on my part. I was thinking that I was going to lose at least three Cruisers in the battle, maybe even four. Damn lucky I lost only the smallest ship. Just like my luck running into that Light Transport with my Corvette behind the line. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As you are aware Ken, those monitors have been waiting outside the system for a bit now. I was waiting for my fleet of 50 armed gnats to show up, but this last turn I said, BAH! forget it. i dont want to wait 4 months just to get a fleet of ships whose SOLE PURPOSE is to take advantage of how the game system works at the moment. Thats senseless. The only think more pathetic than a Fleet Admiril who will not choose to target the most dangerous ship in a fleet is a Shipyard commander who would choose to build ships for no other purpose than to act as chaff. By the time they would get to the front, the monitors would be obsolete anyway. So refusing to blow that much additional time, I sent them in, figuring I'd outmass you by quite a bit and certainly out fire control you. I cannot make any sense out of the batrep and frankly, the fleet admiral and ALL of his advisors DESERVED to die from making such poor decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted January 1, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 My apologies then. I ran into the Monitors many turns ago, after which you started moving them agressively towards me. When that happened, my first thought was he's trying to get to the Torrey WP leading to Nikula and clear a path to that for a slower assault force. When you stopped at the Torrey WP (sort of confirming that belief) is when I sent my Corvettes out from orbitting around moons and such, to gather information on the approaching storm. And when the Corvettes ran into the War Cruiser Command ship last turn, my thought was ahhh, he's not brining up a slow assault force, he's instead bringing up some high Fire Control ships. I was fully expecting that there was another one or two fire control ships coming (likely slimmed down from the War Cruiser size and consisting mostly of Electronics for battle support). The attack this turn was a bit of a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marvin Posted January 1, 2005 Report Share Posted January 1, 2005 This is ridiculous. A larger fleet with better fire control defeated by a much smaller fleet plus a bunch of junk. We are being forced to build silly fleets because the targeting system is obviously broken. And wars will grind down to a glacier pace as swarms of non transwarp gnats crawl back and forth across the map because that's the only way to win battles. It can't be hard to fix this. Something as simple as having ships ignore targets less than 1/10th their mass unless no larger targets exist would go a long way towards making things better. Some people will scream about having to rebuild fleets again. It's a small price to pay to fix the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Now that the battle has been posted in public, I'll add my comments. It's easy to complain without looking at the alternatives. The attacking fleet was horribly designed for this particular engagement, on this particular day. It is not an indictment on the combat system, but instead on the forces involved for the specific engagement. From one of the notes below, the attacker was going to wait for some screens to show up. For that I give him loads of credit - he absolutely had the right idea, and should have waited. The admirals on board are at fault for getting itchy trigger fingers. No more hot sulfur washes, methane baths, or whatever, for them Outmassing the enemy has no inherent meaning. Out-fire-controlling the enemy has no inherent value. It's the combination of firepower-over-time multiplied by friendly-survivability that is the meat of any combat system, in any game. This can be acomplished with or without screens, and with or without fire control. It can be done with small fleets or large. I'm going to pick on the ships a bit here, and it's absoultely not meant to be a personal attack of any sort. Sometimes you go in with what you have. If the ships are obsolete, they'll be replaced anyway so no harm is done even in a loss. The merits of a combat system that uses screening vessels as one way to balance a fleet can certainly be debated. If you want your ships to target only the best possible ships on the enemy side, picking them out at will, then all screening is eliminated and strategy is discarded in favor of pure math. Claiming that a larger fleet should always defeat a smaller enemy fleet regardless of ship design, technology, combat conditions or anything else for that matter is ridiculous. I flat out disagree that huge screens are the only way to win out in big engagements. I can beat any defending force in a variety of ways, and not all of them require that I send in screens of my own. If I can do it, so can the devious minds of many would-be galactic rulers out there Let's look at the attacking ships. They carried with them large amounts of tonnage totally useless in combat (Troop Berthings, Cargo Bays, Jump Survey Sensors, even Fuel Shuttles and Survey Landers of all things). If you're going to attack with only 3 ships, refusing to bring along any screens whatsoever, would you give those ships poor or no armor at all (less integrity than the tonnage of the ship in the case of the War Cruiser, gasp)? At the very least, keep the Troop Berthings back in a second fleet, NWTD-enabled, and bring them through on the following turn to exploit a victory. No time loss with Transwarp capability and much higher security for the troops. As far as I can tell, the attack fleet was designed to die, with no survivability in mind at all, with the hope of taking down some enemy ships in the process. If the fighters were supposed to do most of the damage, why were the attacking ships assigned to deploc 7 and not 12, to maximize defensive damage mitigation? An easy-to-kill carrier mid-way deployed with zero screens? Space the Admirals and start over The whole point of screening vessels is to extend the life of at least one battle. That's it. You want to make the battle last longer so that you can inflict your firepower on the enemy over an extended period of time. You can make the battle fast and furious by using high firepower, high fire control and heavy armor for survival, or you can make the battle longer by utilizing screens. Since they die fast, the usefulness of a screening force is questionable beyond one large battle. If it dies and you were depending on the screens for survival, one more attack may well eliminate your entire fleet. I therefore question why on earth anyone would attack a well screened force through a warp point with poorly armored ships that have plenty of firepower but no staying power. The entire strategy of having high firepower based on fighters means that you want your force to survive as long as possible - as long as you have at least one ship alive, those fighters continue to shoot. It is therefore evident that you would want to survive for as many combat pulses as can be arranged. This can be done with screens or heavily armored, rear-deployed carriers. This points toward survivable ships or large numbers of screens (especially against a fire control 1 enemy). If you don't want to use screens (you don't want to risk losing them, and thus your fleet, or you can't get them to the front in a reasonable amount of time), then strip everything else off of your carrier and armor the thing up like there's no tomorrow. Because....there will be no tomorrow for a carrier that has no screens and low integrity. This would seem to be evident regardless of the combat system. The arguments saying that the combat system is "broken" appear to completely ignore the alternatives. If your ships always target only the best enemy ships and ignore all screens, strategy is eliminated. It might as well be 2 shots kills 1 ship, a combat system that is, incredibly. actually used in some other games. There's no thinking involved. Ship or fleet design mean nothing. Just build generic ships and go get 'em. He with the bigger fleet wins, a combat system based not on thinking, but entirely on production. This is precisely what some are asking for here. It boggles the mind that anybody would want a purely production-based combat system. Sure, a screening system could have used # of ships instead of tonnage to calculate fire control. But that would force combatants to build larger and larger junk ships, and to what end? The results would have been very similar. Players would simply have determined the "sweet spot" for size-of-screening-ship and built those instead of 1,000-ton ones. And you'd be giving the same arguments as now: Target the best enemy ships and ignore the enemy screens, period. And small junkers tend to die very quickly, making use of 1,000 ton screens exceedingly risky for extended engagements - or against an enemy who is willing to play tonnage-exchange games to clear your screens before the main force arrives. It can be said that a really good screening force consists of many smaller ships supported by larger screening ships, supported in turn by still larger screens. Those are supported by the largest ships, which try to survive and dish out damage while their little friends die in large numbers. That's just one way to go. Huge screens are by no means mandatory for victory. Pure production systems of "bigger fleet always wins" don't allow for any of those strategic or tactical concerns. There are any number of things that could have been done differently in the game design, but not all of them are by definition better. Every system has its quirks that can be taken advantage of. That's what we huuumans call strategy. Oh, and to end on a happy note: Happy New Year to everybody... heh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ixpuztec Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 One key advanced tech item is most helpful......... another one is killer... neither involve fire control Build your junk screen fleets, please. -IXY I flat out disagree that huge screens are the only way to win out in big engagements. I can beat any defending force in a variety of ways, and not all of them require that I send in screens of my own. If I can do it, so can the devious minds of many would-be galactic rulers out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bashkar Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Now that the battle has been posted in public, I'll add my comments. It's easy to complain without looking at the alternatives. Oh, and to end on a happy note: Happy New Year to everybody... heh <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks so much for the analysis Pete. I feel this was a great point for everyone to see and hear. Now to re-organize those brilliant characters that were able to make it into their personal shuttlecraft and land on those populated worlds in the Nikula system. That was the hard way to deploy them for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Capitan Posted January 2, 2005 Report Share Posted January 2, 2005 Here's a point that seems to be forgoten..... Battles are two-sided. Each side is trying to implement a tactic. It might be ideal for one side to try and bypass all the intervening little screening ships and only target the big ships with nasty weapons, but just because you want to do this doesn't mean that the opposing side is just going to roll over and let you do it. "Attention all screening ships, this is your Captain speaking. The enemy can't get a clear shot at us big guys in the back beacuse you're in the way. Since they've got some really nice big shiney guns, I think it's only polite that we oblige and clear a path so they can have a direct shot at the rear lines. So I'm ording all screening ships to stand down. I know you've trained for months to be effective screens but the ememy claims that only one side at a time may attempt to employ any type of tactics. So if all you screeing ships would be so kind as to stay out of the way for the rest of the battle it would really make our enemy happy." Screens are called screens for a reason. It's their job to get in your face and limit your targeting options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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