Naval Upgrades

[Magus666]

Well, on a ship of 1,000,000 tons, in which only 500 tons where being retrofit, it would save the construction time in the shipyards of 999,500 tons. Since each shipyard can only construct 10,000 tons per turn, that frees up either 99 shipyards for 1 turn, or 1 shipyard for 99 turns (or some combination thereof) to build other things. That seems like a pretty significant difference. Even on ships of less than 10,000 tons, it would take a Shipyard at least 2 turns to SCRP it and then SHIP a new one, rather that one turn to REFT.

 

I agree with the point about mobile shipyards. As I said in the thread about Orbital Installations, being able to carry some kind of repair/construction/production facility with a fleet would seem like a useful thing.

[ali-t-akua]

Well, on a ship of 1,000,000 tons, in which only 500 tons where being retrofit, it would save the construction time in the shipyards of 999,500 tons. Since each shipyard can only construct 10,000 tons per turn, that frees up either 99 shipyards for 1 turn, or 1 shipyard for 99 turns (or some combination thereof) to build other things. That seems like a pretty significant difference. Even on ships of less than 10,000 tons, it would take a Shipyard at least 2 turns to SCRP it and then SHIP a new one, rather that one turn to REFT.

 

I agree with the point about mobile shipyards. As I said in the thread about Orbital Installations, being able to carry some kind of repair/construction/production facility with a fleet would seem like a useful thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

It would seem to me that a retrofit order would still need to take up a slip. Are you proposing that only one item at a time be retrofit? For example upgrading from Mk II Computers to Mk III Computers would be an order as would upgrading from Light Beam Lasers to Medium Beam Lasers or are you suggesting that every change you wish to make be included in a single order?

 

Where would you draw the line for upgrade paths? Could you upgrade from Frost Cannons to Light Fusion Blasters? Or Light Beam Lasers to Light Pulse Lasers? Or Light Stun beams to Medium Stun Beams? How about Short Range Sensors to Engines? Some of these are similar techs, some are dissimilar techs and some are different size weapon systems?

 

As for mobile repair bays as proposed by hobknob, I agree it would be nice, especially if Pete should ever make Crew Experience/Morale a significant factor in combat but I am against the mobile shipyard proposal because of the significant impact it would have on game balance.

[Magus666]

Yes it is correct that a REFT order would take up a Shipyard Slip, however, it would usually take it up for a shorter amount of time than a SCRP and SHIP.

 

As I had the REFT order envisioned, it would require that you create a new Naval Unit design with the modification you desired. For example, the Battle Death Star refit as described above would need a NUD to create a Battle Death Star II. The only difference would be the addition of a MK IV computer in place of a MK III computer. It would contain all the same 1M tons of Armor, 1M tons of Weapons, engines, etc, at the original Battle Death Star. When the REFT was ordered, the system would compare the components of the starting vessel and the components of the ending vessel. Extraneous components would be removed, new components added, and the total tonnage of all the "moved" components (+20%) would be the total build amount. Thus, ALL the modification between ships could be done with one order. Theoretically, it might be possible to completely change the components of the ship, but this would be more costly and time consuming than building a new one.

[hobknob]

I think refits wojld only owrk if ship designs were more controlled so you at least could argue that you had the same hull size and other configurations. With the free form system that we have, refits don't seem to work for me.

 

I do plenty of scrapping and redesigning. I am up to my 4th or 5th generation of transport and freighter and soon I will need to do it all over again as the next engines come on line and needs change. I am not sure that a refit order would save me much.

 

[Magus666]

Well, as I said, in THEORY, it WOULD be possible to refit a Pathfinder into a 4th generation heavy carrier, or something else equally improbable. But since they would have virtually no components in common, and due to the +20% tonnage I suggested, it would take longer (or take more shipyard tonnage) to retrofit than to simply build anew. The command would really only be practical for ships in which MOST of the components were of the same type and tonnage. Although this would not neccesarily mean that the hull size and configurations were the same, it would generally be a pretty good indicator.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Interesting thread.....

 

However, taking your idea of the smallest design change - just changing the computer......now just think about this a moment.

 

Even changing a single 100t computer on a 1,000,000 ton ship is an incredible job. It's not something you can walk into the control room with, unplug the old one and plug in the new - oh no!!!

 

You'd have to dock the ship (shipyard slip) - put around a complete structure - disconnect a myriad of wires and interfaces - cut through layers of highly dense armour using very advanced welding techniques - and masses of bulkheads. All this to get a path down to the old computer and then take it out. Put in the new one - and then repatch, reweld and test for ages.

 

All in all, the SCRP-SHIP in two turns is very realistic compared to the, actually easier to build from scratch - SHIP in one turn order.

 

Now, however, as we're looking at it - what does have me vexed is the whole idea of a SHIP in one turn order - but it's not just SN that has done this!

 

The fact that a 1 billion ton ship can be built in the same time as a 1,000 ton ship!

 

That's just plain silly. For my part - I'd rather each Shipyard Slip had a tonnage limit - something like 1,000,000 tons per turn - so a 9m DN would take 9 turns to build........

 

You can replace Cruisers and Destroyers in a turn, but bigger ships should take longer.

 

Mx

[Laserwolf]

It seems Ur Lord Tedric's engineers are stuck in a ship design rut. OUR engineers designed our ships computers and weapon systems to be modular. We simply swap a box out. Takes about an hour to do, 3 hours for weapons upgrades, and most of that is paperwork.

[Magus666]

Dont get me wrong. Im not suggesting that even a "small" retrofit of a capital ship would be EASY. They generally DONT build those things "plug-n-play". Im just saying that it would be easier than building a new one from scratch. If this werent the case, real world militaries wouldnt retrofit old ships...theyd just build new ones all the time. And given that one turn, I believe, is like one "year", that should be ample time to do most refits.

 

I agree about the maximum tonnage per turn. You shouldnt simply be able to pile on shipyards ad infinitum to complete anything in one turn. There is a practical limit of just how much can be worked on at one time. Perhaps something like the YEILD limits on resources could be applied to Ship Tonnage. As more shipyards are assigned to a single ship, each ones net production decreases until a point of negative returns is reached.

[TErnest]

Well, on a ship of 1,000,000 tons, in which only 500 tons where being retrofit, it would save the construction time in the shipyards of 999,500 tons. Since each shipyard can only construct 10,000 tons per turn, that frees up either 99 shipyards for 1 turn, or 1 shipyard for 99 turns (or some combination thereof) to build other things. That seems like a pretty significant difference. Even on ships of less than 10,000 tons, it would take a Shipyard at least 2 turns to SCRP it and then SHIP a new one, rather that one turn to REFT.

 

I agree with the point about mobile shipyards. As I said in the thread about Orbital Installations, being able to carry some kind of repair/construction/production facility with a fleet would seem like a useful thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Magus666,

 

There is a reason that there has not been a huge demand for a REFIT order up to now. And why your suggestion is getting only a luke warm reception. 1,000,000 tons of shipyard capacity is easy, some might even say trivial, to come by. There is already a way to deal with refits, even if it is a bit clumbsy, but all it really costs is a little more shipyard capacity. Now... come up with ways for players to save lots of orders, or even better, to save hundreds of shipyard slips... and the Universe will beat a path to your door!

 

Yes, having a REFIT order would be better than the status quo. I agree. But would it be ENOUGH better to justify asking Pete to work on it, in favor the several dozen things many players in the game despirately want to see finished? Probably not.

 

Just a matter of priorities. The lack of enthusiasm is not so much a comment on your very fine idea, as it is a realization the board population has come to that Pete is way overworked, and should probably focus his attention on only the most critical matters.

 

TErnest

[Laserwolf]

How about by making some ship systems "instant upgrades" like troops? If you have a system on the ship and you get the technology to upgrade it (think MK I to MK II Thermal regulators or computers) then you automatically get them. Moving from Light Laser to medium laser would be a refit, but systems where the tonnage does not change with the tech advance could all be candidates.

[ali-t-akua]

Now, however, as we're looking at it - what does have me vexed is the whole idea of a SHIP in one turn order - but it's not just SN that has done this!

 

The fact that a 1 billion ton ship can be built in the same time as a 1,000 ton ship! jawdrop.gif

 

That's just plain silly. For my part - I'd rather each Shipyard Slip had a tonnage limit - something like 1,000,000 tons per turn - so a 9m DN would take 9 turns to build........

 

I think of the Shipyard capacity workers and equipment as the men (and wonmen) and equipment to put together the ship and the slips as the final assembly point. An analogy to this is an aircraft manufacturer like Boeing and Airbus. everything is built by subcontractors in modules and then the modules are assembled at the final assembly point. I will have to check but I don't think it takes much more time to build a 747 than a 737. It is a matter of logistics planning. Therefore while the fact that a 1 Billion T ship takes as long as a 1k T ship is a simplification, it does not disturb me much. Besides the capacity to build a 1 Billion T ship in a turn requires a heck of a lot of CM.

[ShadowKitsune]

Now, however, as we're looking at it - what does have me vexed is the whole idea of a SHIP in one turn order - but it's not just SN that has done this!

 

The fact that a 1 billion ton ship can be built in the same time as a 1,000 ton ship! jawdrop.gif

 

That's just plain silly. For my part - I'd rather each Shipyard Slip had a tonnage limit - something like 1,000,000 tons per turn - so a 9m DN would take 9 turns to build........

 

I think of the Shipyard capacity workers and equipment as the men (and wonmen) and equipment to put together the ship and the slips as the final assembly point. An analogy to this is an aircraft manufacturer like Boeing and Airbus. everything is built by subcontractors in modules and then the modules are assembled at the final assembly point. I will have to check but I don't think it takes much more time to build a 747 than a 737. It is a matter of logistics planning. Therefore while the fact that a 1 Billion T ship takes as long as a 1k T ship is a simplification, it does not disturb me much. Besides the capacity to build a 1 Billion T ship in a turn requires a heck of a lot of CM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Are you taking Shipyards or Shipyard Slips?

 

Shipyards have a tonnage capacity.

Shipyard Slips also have a capacity, 1 Ship.

 

You can assemble a billion ton ship if you have the right number of Shipyards.

 

I agree with Ali-t-akua on this issue. Slips are more like final assembly areas, which can 'flex' based on the size of the ship you are building.

 

FWIW,

-SK

[Hughestrog]

Besides the capacity to build a 1 Billion T ship in a turn requires a heck of a lot of CM.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

50,000,000 CM

 

That should build you 100,000 shipyards, which should give you the capacity to build a 1,000,000,000 ton ship.

 

Mind you, you'd need another 500,000,000 CM to build the power plants, but you've got those CM's for something.

[Magus666]

Another issue that would effect this, of course, is just what is the practical size of ships? We are discussing 1million ton ships here, and the capacity to build them as trivial. The CAPACITY might well exist, and in fact BE trivial. Shanghai, China has a shipbuilding capacity of 3million tons, and they are building more facilities to QUADRUPLE that to 12million tons by 2015. But that is for ALOT of ships. Of course we are talking about technologies in advance of modern human (since we dont have regular spaceflight as yet), but even an Iowa class Battleship, with triple 16 inch turrets, as well as 5 inch guns, 40mm, 20 mm, and .50 caliber guns, and 11 inches of nickle-steel armor...weighed about 52,000 tons. The largest warship ever built on earth is a Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier....weighing in at about 100,000 tons fully loaded with aircraft. The Empire State Building weighs 365,000 tons, although it doesnt need engines or weapons The largest ship built is an oil tanker, the Jahre Viking, with a gross tonnage of 565,000 tons. The proposed "Freedom Ship", with a length of 4,320 ft, width of 725 feet, height 340 feet, crew of 15,000 and 70,000 passengers weighs in 2.7 millions tons. At 1million+ tons, we are talking about flying something like the Hoover Dam (at 6.6Million tons) through space.

 

Are people routinely building warships like this?

[TErnest]

Another issue that would effect this, of course, is just what is the practical size of ships? We are discussing 1million ton ships here, and the capacity to build them as trivial. The CAPACITY might well exist, and in fact BE trivial. Shanghai, China has a shipbuilding capacity of 3million tons, and they are building more facilities to QUADRUPLE that to 12million tons by 2015. But that is for ALOT of ships. Of course we are talking about technologies in advance of modern human (since we dont have regular spaceflight as yet), but even an Iowa class Battleship, with triple 16 inch turrets, as well as 5 inch guns, 40mm, 20 mm, and .50 caliber guns, and 11 inches of nickle-steel armor...weighed  about 52,000 tons. The largest warship ever built on earth is a Nimitz class Aircraft Carrier....weighing in at about 100,000 tons fully loaded with aircraft. The Empire State Building weighs 365,000 tons, although it doesnt need engines or weapons The largest ship built is an oil tanker, the Jahre Viking, with a gross tonnage of 565,000 tons. The proposed "Freedom Ship", with a length of 4,320 ft, width of 725 feet, height 340 feet, crew of 15,000 and 70,000 passengers weighs in 2.7 millions tons. At 1million+ tons, we are talking about flying something like the Hoover Dam (at 6.6Million tons) through space.

 

Are people routinely building warships like this?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Typical ships of the line in SNROTE are a few million tons. Some battles published on the boards exhibited ships on the order of ten million tons.

 

There is no theoretical limit to ship size. But keep in mind that a typical home world, if it really put its mind to it, could produce somthing upwards of of 750,000 tons of ship equipment per turn. That is, of course, if it dedicated almost all of its production capacity to ship production, rather than CM, or troops, or anything else. And that would be TOTAL ship production, including explorers, freighters, colony ships, transports, tankers, pickets, etc.

 

As a practical matter, a homeworld on a war time footing could expect to produce better than a half a million tons of war ships per turn. So those 10M ton warships mentioned earlier represent up to a 20 turn production effort.

 

TErnest