Dropping the Game

[Lord Uriel]

6.  RP is RP.  If you want to have a Galactic Senate and sing "Kumbayah," go ahead, WHAPO, Starbars, and all the other somewhat RP players out there will carry on with whatever RP they're doing (Magus666, New Spartans HATE bugs).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Role Playing can make a game more enjoyable. But there is a limit to how far folks can take it. I believe it's best to balance any role playing that with the fact that I am playing with other folks. While it is a game, only a game, a lot of emotions can get tied up into the time and effort spent in a game position. So in open ended games like this, I never let the role playing decide my actions. I decide on an action (which typically means not hurting another player, depending on what is going on) and then, apply role playing to spice it up. Creativity in the role playing to make it apply to what you decide is part of the enjoyment. Letting role playing decide and using it as an excuse for actions, well, that's just seems wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WKE,

 

I certainly understand your position. However, I don't believe snrote to really, be an open ended game. You can't trade Horizen tech, Ground Tech, Instillations, or Ground Troops. You can trade some scientific items, engines, sensors and an abundance of weapons.

I realize many players may want to do something else in the game, but to forget that this really is a space warfare game is faulty reasoning.

 

With that said, I don't believe anyone in the game should suggest how another player RP's his empire. Espically if the player has made a conscious effort to exclusively RP his position in all contacts with other players. I may mourn the loss of the big cat (I do), and his (or should I say her,) style of RP, but I will not judge another player's style of RP while doing so.

 

Alright, everyone have a nice day!

[CLEernest]

Even those of us among the avian races are sad to see the cats leave.

 

If the cats arn't willing to fight I have a suggestion. Lets find an accomplished military leader, someone who has won a war before. We have them talk to Pete about picking up the postion. Then they can show the Gor'jahan (or however its spelled) how to really fight a war.

 

Maybe a member of the PA or TErnest could do the job?

[WKE235]

6.  RP is RP.  If you want to have a Galactic Senate and sing "Kumbayah," go ahead, WHAPO, Starbars, and all the other somewhat RP players out there will carry on with whatever RP they're doing (Magus666, New Spartans HATE bugs).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Role Playing can make a game more enjoyable. But there is a limit to how far folks can take it. I believe it's best to balance any role playing that with the fact that I am playing with other folks. While it is a game, only a game, a lot of emotions can get tied up into the time and effort spent in a game position. So in open ended games like this, I never let the role playing decide my actions. I decide on an action (which typically means not hurting another player, depending on what is going on) and then, apply role playing to spice it up. Creativity in the role playing to make it apply to what you decide is part of the enjoyment. Letting role playing decide and using it as an excuse for actions, well, that's just seems wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

WKE,

 

I certainly understand your position. However, I don't believe snrote to really, be an open ended game. You can't trade Horizen tech, Ground Tech, Instillations, or Ground Troops. You can trade some scientific items, engines, sensors and an abundance of weapons.

I realize many players may want to do something else in the game, but to forget that this really is a space warfare game is faulty reasoning.

 

With that said, I don't believe anyone in the game should suggest how another player RP's his empire. Espically if the player has made a conscious effort to exclusively RP his position in all contacts with other players. I may mourn the loss of the big cat (I do), and his (or should I say her,) style of RP, but I will not judge another player's style of RP while doing so.

 

Alright, everyone have a nice day!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First, I believe everyone has to right to suggest anything they want. Stating or suggesting or even telling another how they should do anything and everything is perfectly fine. Since it is all mere words and writing, the person the statements / suggestions are directed act has the right to choose on how to react (such as laugh at and ignore them it all).

 

Second, RP'ing can go to far. For example, if I was RP'ing a dark lord with an evil empire, perhaps while being in character I might post a very nasty, vile, racist style (towards someones SN race, not real race, just to be clear) note on this web site. Would your expectation be that RTG would remove it as having gone to far? Or leave it as the person was only in character? My expectation (since they do not in general police the boards) would be RTG would remove it only if they had enough complaints about it, or had their own concerns about the content once it was pointed out to them. In general, it is the community itself that is setting the limitations around the RP'er.

 

The same is true within the game itself. RTG does not police the game (having enough trouble keeping the thing running and not exploding). So the players set the rules, the boundries, the expectations for other players on how to act and behave. Multiple different camps of beliefs can evolve. These groups in essence enforce a set of unwritten rules (or checks and balances between groups in disagreement) on the universe. Once more, a player can simply ignore the others and laugh at them and do whatever is permissible within the game rules. But if the gaming community groups are strong and well organized, they then risk consequences for breaking the game community rules, with game elimination a possibility. In the case of SN, what is most surprising to me is despite three years time, nothing has really jelled for the communities. Many have attempted certain organizations. And while some may still be around in various forms, they all lack any type of grand, galactic influence. So while there is a contingent of us who feel the gamers actions are wrong, well, it seems there's not much we can do about it this time. Oh we can jawbone and hope we can talk sense into the other player. And of course this jawboning will connect the like players, and hopefully lead to something that can enforce some type of rules or structure.

 

Lastly, this is by all accounts an open ended game. A close-end game would be one that ends after a given number of turns, or when certain conditions happen. There are no such conditions in this game (other than perhaps Pete and Russ win the Mega-Millions lotto and abandon the game for their own private islands in the Carribean ). Hence it is open ended. The question is though, what IS the primary focus of this game. Overall I do not believe this was intended to be just a Space Wargame (a game designed to simulate the tactics, strategy, actions, and results of warfare). To state this is a wargame would be to say all of the rules and actions in the game are focused just for supporting the action called warfare.

 

I know RTG has stated they tried to create something that would appeal to a broad range of players. So they put in economics, trading, ship design and fighting, legendary characters, etcetera.. But as your trade example showed, many of these aspects of the game are weakened or almost non-existant (like religon and spying). While this may have been done for game balance issues, it has proved a frustration to players who joined looking for what seemed to be promised. So did RTG try for something grander, but end up with what is just a more complicated wargame? Or is this more than a wargame, and folks who focus on just that aspect needed to broaden their vision?

 

[Sha'thar of the Gosht Kohr]

Ok.

 

Now that the smoke has cleared and I have gotten some things out of my system, I have indeed decided to stick it out and stay in the game. As I've mentioned, part of my reason for posting here was to hear what people had to say about the issue, so I could view my decisions through less-clouded eyes.

 

Generally, the conversation has been earnest and enlightening. I thank everyone who left a comment, and urge folks to continue to chime in.

 

I think TErnest had it right. There do seem to be definite stages one goes through when faced with bad news, and I went through all of them. Finally at acceptance, I can go ahead and play the game. It's odd... but I also feel I owe what I imagine the Gosht Kohr to be this much. A good fight and, if it comes to it, an honorable passing.

 

Wrf.

 

-Sha'thar

[cestvel]

Whoa, this is great news!

[Gary Carpenter]

Glad to see you are staying.

[Kurassier]

I agree with a lot of what people have said, play your empire how you want. Just remember it pays to have balance.

If an empire where to emphasize only trade, but not have a military to protect your merchants, then you are only asking for trouble. (unless you have friends close by! )

I would consider my race of the 'merchant' class of role players (in case some of you haven't figured that out yet! but I believe in the 'walk softly, carry a big stick' philosophy. Sooo, if someone decided to assault my empire because they thought I was a weak merchant race, or because I tried diplomacy first, they would be sorely mistaken.

 

Soooo, long and short of it, glad to see the Gosht Kohr are still in it, and, just because I'm such a nice guy, I'd be willing to trade the Gosht Kohr some really big sticks if I find you (or you find me).

Enjoy your number crunching all and don't forget to stop at your nearby StarBars where the number crunching seems easier. (or at least you won't care as much!)

[Ixitixl]

I am also gald to see that you are staying!

[ali-t-akua]

Ok.

 

Now that the smoke has cleared and I have gotten some things out of my system, I have indeed decided to stick it out and stay in the game.  As I've mentioned, part of my reason for posting here was to hear what people had to say about the issue, so I could view my decisions through less-clouded eyes.

 

Generally, the conversation has been earnest and enlightening.  I thank everyone who left a comment, and urge folks to continue to chime in.

 

I think TErnest had it right.  There do seem to be definite stages one goes through when faced with bad news, and I went through all of them.  Finally at acceptance, I can go ahead and play the game.  It's odd... but I also feel I owe what I imagine the Gosht Kohr to be this much.  A good fight and, if it comes to it, an honorable passing.

 

Wrf.

 

-Sha'thar

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

This is indeed good news. May the cats find plentiful game in their hunting grounds.

[Lord Uriel]

Ok.

 

Now that the smoke has cleared and I have gotten some things out of my system, I have indeed decided to stick it out and stay in the game.  As I've mentioned, part of my reason for posting here was to hear what people had to say about the issue, so I could view my decisions through less-clouded eyes.

 

Generally, the conversation has been earnest and enlightening.  I thank everyone who left a comment, and urge folks to continue to chime in.

 

I think TErnest had it right.  There do seem to be definite stages one goes through when faced with bad news, and I went through all of them.  Finally at acceptance, I can go ahead and play the game.  It's odd... but I also feel I owe what I imagine the Gosht Kohr to be this much.  A good fight and, if it comes to it, an honorable passing.

 

Wrf.

 

-Sha'thar

 

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nice to know someone's thinking about the cubs!

[Steve_Kort]

Lastly, this is by all accounts an open ended game. A close-end game would be one that ends after a given number of turns, or when certain conditions happen. There are no such conditions in this game (other than perhaps Pete and Russ win the Mega-Millions lotto and abandon the game for their own private islands in the Carribean ). Hence it is open ended. The question is though, what IS the primary focus of this game. Overall I do not believe this was intended to be just a Space Wargame (a game designed to simulate the tactics, strategy, actions, and results of warfare). To state this is a wargame would be to say all of the rules and actions in the game are focused just for supporting the action called warfare.

 

I know RTG has stated they tried to create something that would appeal to a broad range of players. So they put in economics, trading, ship design and fighting, legendary characters, etcetera.. But as your trade example showed, many of these aspects of the game are weakened or almost non-existant (like religon and spying). While this may have been done for game balance issues, it has proved a frustration to players who joined looking for what seemed to be promised. So did RTG try for something grander, but end up with what is just a more complicated wargame? Or is this more than a wargame, and folks who focus on just that aspect needed to broaden their vision?

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

WKE this is a wargame when you get right down to it, while there are more facets to this game then most wargames. Once you have expanded your borders to run into others you better be prepared to fight and defend what you have or game over. The other facets of the game add a lot of challenges and ability to build things up as you want, but it all leads to one thing ultimately. That is your ability to fight and defend. The added facets to the game gave many people something more than a simple wargame. But it all boils down to getting to the end game of warfare.

 

Also to say this is a open ended game just because it has no predetermined end point is a bit of a reach. Do to the nature of this games warfare and advancing tech, once the super powers knock each other out and only a few remain RTG will close the game do to lack of numbers, only they know when. As things stand right now, I beleive it is to late to start a empire and have a real impact on this game. Now you may be able to have a good time with various things in the game, but I see no way of you making up the ground to compete with people that have ships that can travel 10+ WP's and destroy your ships in a round. The fact that we have never ending resources makes the early starters have a huge advantage that you can not hope to overcome. I also seem to recall RTG saying something in the begining that they expected the game to run about 5 years. The way things are going that sounds about right.

[WKE235]

Also to say this is a open ended game just because it has no predetermined end point is a bit of a reach.  Do to the nature of this games warfare and advancing tech, once the super powers knock each other out and only a few remain RTG will close the game do to lack of numbers, only they know when.  As things stand right now, I beleive it is to late to start a empire and have a real impact on this game.  Now you may be able to have a good time with various things in the game, but I see no way of you making up the ground to compete with people that have ships that can travel 10+ WP's and destroy your ships in a round.  The fact that we have never ending resources makes the early starters have a huge advantage that you can not hope to overcome.  I also seem to recall RTG saying something in the begining that they expected the game to run about 5 years.  The way things are going that sounds about right.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I point out the first sentence of the second paragraph of Chapter 1 of the rule book, under the heading "What is Supernova". It states "There are no winners or losers determined in SN:ROTE, as the game does not end". Also, look over the rest of the introduction section, and what is on this website. In essence what some folks are saying is despite all the flowery langauge about what SN:ROTE is on the web site, despite all the information in the introduction section of the rulebook, despite all of this wording pointing to a rich and complex game .. that the game is simply a build big fleets and go smack people around wargame that is close-ended, with a few complexities tossed in. If that is the case, RTG owes me and a lot of others a BIG refund for false advertising of their product.

 

I will also point out we are coming up on the 100th turn, or nearly four years. All the elder races are advancing in tech, and many are on equal par/footing. Distances are still vast even for Mk I+ Gravitic engines (and folks have a tendency to put the extra resources into more shields and firepower and fire control rather than blistering speed). Most have no idea where the others are. And I wouldn't be surprised if RTG hasn't tossed in a surprise or two so as to slow down contact towards the younger players (like Type H, I, J ... wormholes ... why bother exploring those when there is so much else to play with nearby). 5 years? Maybe if RTG gets bored. Many more years are much more likely, and pleasing to us addicts.

[RTGPete]

SNROTE, like all games, is what you make of it. We give you the tools to design and build starships , explore, design sometimes bizarre alien lifeforms , research new technologies, trade, colonize far-off planets, fight space and ground battles, conduct diplomacy and much more. It's a big game - play it how you will, and if somebody comes along and kills you, that's part of the game. If somebody comes along and you decide to form an alliance, that's part of the game too. We haven't forced anybody to go down any particular path, allowing each player to choose how he/she would like to enjoy themselves. This does not guarantee security, nor does it spell doom. Much depends on how you deal with your neighbors, or if you deal with them at all.

 

I might add that this is a different style of game than, say, Victory! The Battle for Europe. In Victory!, swift death or glorious success often lurks around every corner, with massive over-the-top invasions occurring fairly frequently. One day you're on top of the world, and the next...30 divisions of enemy armored units have rumbled across your border, wiping away your defenses and claiming your territory as theirs (of course, you might be the one sitting in the command tank doing the invading....). Each type of game has a different pace. SNROTE happens to be much slower-paced, longer-term game than Victory!. This gives the so-called "turtles" a chance to survive unmolested, but certainly there are no guarantees concerning the actions of other players.

 

If everybody in SNROTE decided to do nothing but build ships and smash each other back into the stone age, then it would become mostly a space combat game--decided by the players, not us. This, however, is not at all what has happened, as many players have decided to go in a variety of directions. In my humble opinion, that's a good thing for this type of game. How things proceed is entirely up to the SNROTE player community.

[Lord Valwyn]

Ok.

 

Now that the smoke has cleared and I have gotten some things out of my system, I have indeed decided to stick it out and stay in the game.  As I've mentioned, part of my reason for posting here was to hear what people had to say about the issue, so I could view my decisions through less-clouded eyes.

 

Generally, the conversation has been earnest and enlightening.  I thank everyone who left a comment, and urge folks to continue to chime in.

 

I think TErnest had it right.  There do seem to be definite stages one goes through when faced with bad news, and I went through all of them.  Finally at acceptance, I can go ahead and play the game.  It's odd... but I also feel I owe what I imagine the Gosht Kohr to be this much.  A good fight and, if it comes to it, an honorable passing.

 

Wrf.

 

-Sha'thar

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Sha'thar of the honorable Gosht Kohr,

 

We of the Star Realms of Hyperion have followed your news as it has arrived across the vastness of the continuum and we are relieved that you have chosen to stand your ground.. errr.. space. We salute you and offer our respect and best wishes in your coming campaign. Please keep us posted on the details of your struggle against the "mad one".

 

Lord Valwyn

 

 

P.S. (OOC) I think the investment in ones empire does indeed cross the lines of just being a financial one, the degree of accuracy needed to avoid costly mistakes and the degree of long range planning one needs to ponder means investing a lot of time and energy, in addition to the money. Though all would presumably feel a sense of loss if the survival of all that you had worked for were at risk, it is inevitable in a game such as this that extermination/assimilation is an inherent risk. The less warlike probably feel this even more for they likely cherish the building/growth aspects of the game above all other concerns whereas the warrior accepts the losses and risks of war from the get-go. This doesn't change the fact that Gjorhaan (sp?) or any other player has the right to make decisions as to how they run their empire free from the constraints of others, even less threatening ones.

 

Wargames always suffer from one breach of reality that is hard to reconcile; that we as players only really risk our time and money. The horrors of war and of massive casualties and potential extermination are not truly real (no.. really...) so decisions about "acceptable losses" and "if and when to accept the surrender of an enemy, etc. are made without having to account for issues that are much more relevant in real life. "Scorched planet" strategies become the norm when faced with an invader that cannot be repelled since one cares little for the potential extermination of a sim-species in comparison to the idea of denying the "player" as much material as possible when looking at the grand strategic scale of the game. Roleplaying is a means to balance these ideals by attempting to make decisions that are more plausible, but the roleplayer generally sacrifices strategic considerations to those who are merely playing "to win", not only on an imperial scale per se but on a larger scale. And whatever happened to tribute/client states?

 

The $10,000 question is "How do we reconcile these differing ideas on style of play? Not sure what the answer is but I think clearly we can't deny anyone their right to self determination. The rest all boils down to some sort of "gaming ethics" that can only really be influential when imposed/enforced by peer pressure. The Galactic Senate was an attempt at this kind of device, but in a game such this, unlike modern day Earth where nations can and do exert considerable influence upon one another, each empire is much more disconnected from would-be allies (and enemies) such that a lot of your game experience will ultimately come down to who you ended up with as neighbors (a purely random thing). Because of the boards, some empires have befriended older/stronger empires who make threats about doing this or that to their allies that aren't actually in contact but who takes seriously the threats of empires we don't know for sure even exist? The Galactic Senate idea ultimately suffered from the problem that they could only enforce their collective will upon those they could reach, which is finite and small. Who knows at what point that could be overcome thus allowing for a potentially effective "multi-empire" league of some kind, regardless of any other complaints about its utility or point.

 

Is it fair that one empire can start surrounded by warlike empires that it will forever face a tremendous struggle to survive against while another empire starts surrounded by friendly trader empires that allow all to flourish and grow, and more importantly perhaps survive to endgame? Assuming its all random then I see no other alternative. It all boils down to chance, so you play knowing you may not get dealt the hand someone else may. It can be frustrarting when things don't work out as you hope, especially since you won't know who you neighhbors are for months and thus become attached to your empire before realizing whether or not it was worth it if you find yourself next to a "Death machine" type, but is there truly a better way? I cannot think of one.

 

Ones expectations should be realistic concerning a game of this nature. The question about whether or not Supernova can ever become more than just a wargame is moot the moment one finds oneself a neighbor of an imperialistic warlike race. The actual interplay between you and those near you is what truly determines what kind of game this is for you the player. If your first contact is a 'death machine" type (an empire bent solely on eradicating all other empires), you are now forced to pursue war as a means of survival whether you like it or not. My experiences in game (other than on the boards) have been completely dictated for each of my positions by my neighbors. Hyperion is doing much better than the other because of the circumstances of who my neighbors are and what that has meant to my growth. My influence upon these empires as the player is generally going to be a wash since I play them both in a pretty similar way, but the influence upon the two empires from external sources has meant a tremendous difference in the relative success of the two positions (at least at this point in the game).

 

As technology increases it may be that it will become easier to contact others not directly bordering what you know as "your space" thus allowing you to expand your options for interaction in the game as a whole but even then your direct neighbors will always play a dominant role in how your empire experiences the game. Just like the idea that none of us get to choose our parents, the most influential humans most of us will ever know, the same thing applies in Supernova. The challenge is trying to seperate your feelings about the game and its mechanics from the realities of your position given the "hand" of neighbors you were dealt. A player playing a peaceful trade empire finding a "Death Machine" type neighbor will have a much different view of Supernova than one who finds kindred spirits nextdoor and can thus take advantage of the benefits of cooperation.

 

For me, Supernova has much to offer but still has room to grow and promise to fulfill. I think the game really needs to get some modules up and running that will provide alternatives to just straight up combat. Espionage, Religion, etc. I also think the combat system is a decent reflection of mass space battles (at least as we envision them as 21st century gamers) but could be improved, especially in regards to targetting. I still have issues with the idea that puffball swarms can defeat smaller but superior fleets by virute of random targeting but thats another post entirely. I like the way technology works for the most part. I like the granularity of the game as well. I would rather play this game than any other space sim because it allows for detailed planning and incremental growth. I just want to see it continue to grow and meet its potential. Ultimately I judge the game on one simple idea. Financial investment vs. Fun. I wrestle with this at times when I find that order counts for some actions seem excessive for what I am trying to accomplish but this tends to balance out and all in all I continue paying to play. I love Russ and Pete to death and my loyalty to them plays a part as well, but I really like Supernova, I just dont want the game to stagnate. Somewhere out there, our expectations of RTG and their perception of whether or not running this game is worth it to them meet and I hope the result continues to be a game with a future because the death of Supernova is what would truly make me feel like my investment had been thrown away. I hope that day never comes..

 

The game takes all types, you need the guys willing to play the evil or warlike races as much as you need the honorable types. Conflict is the heart of any game and without it the game would be boring and die. For all the attention, good or bad that MMB gets, in the long run the conflicts arising from it are good for the game and thus each of us. Same with the larger alliances like us and the PA. The best case scenario IMHO is when we all feel we are the good guys and that the "other" guy is the evil one (roleplaying exaggeration intended). That is the best struggle of all, the shades of grey of good vs good. One hopes that within the context of the game there is honor in the sense of avoiding cheating and/or taking unfair advantage of the medium but even that is not something many of us can directly control. Many have swapped turnsheets for instance and some have cried foul. Doing this is just another risk one takes for a potential gain in cooperation. Trust is earned/gained by different means for different folks. The bottom line is no one has ultimate responsibility for your decisions in this regard than you the player. I have encountered players who are still silent and unknown to everyone out there on the boards. Surprised me but pleasantly, lends some mystery to space in my book. The boards can be a great tool for information exchange but also distort the reality of the game in other ways since there are no guarantees of integrity. The boards make us feel more connected and stimulate the idea we are playing against lots of others but how much of the info can really be trusted or even verified? Again, each of us has to decide how much faith to place in that medium for ourselves.

 

All in all, I am glad the Gosht Khor are remaining with us (nothing that makes a junkie happier than knowing they aren't the only junkie... "Rehab? Why the hell you wanna do a stupid thing like that? pass me the crackpipe..."). I also like the roleplaying of Gjorhaan and think its interesting that those two ended up neighbors since they seem to represent two polar styles of heavy roleplaying. How can that be bad? Sorry to babble so long, I had not posted in eons and waxed philosophical about the game in general. I mercifully digress..

 

Mark

[WKE235]

And whatever happened to tribute/client states?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

When a Death/War machine player encounters a more peaceful player, they could always come to some arrangement. While nothing in this game would enforce such a condition, the one player could declare alligence to the other, and agree to various terms like where to focus research, building of materials to give to player X, etcetera...

 

The plus side is ease of management for the agressive player. One homeworld is a lot of work. Two HW + all the colonies the other player had is a LOT more to keep watch over and occasionally tune. Plus the client play acts as sort of a buffer between tham and others, allowing the aggressive player to better concentrate forces elsewhere. And, you have two sets of R&D, where some type of coordinated action might be possible. Sure it's risky, but big gains always carry risks.

 

The plus side for the peaceful player is being able to concentrate on what they like (building colonies, moving goods, setting up trade (or gifting in this case) with another player), and still play the game pretty much they way they want.

 

 

Hmmm .. I wonder if such is the case here with Gost and Gjor?