Pete, how about an Advanced Fuel Shuttle?

[hobknob]

Well, basically the advance for a fuel shuttle is Engine technology

 

The request to add advanced fuel shuttles to the game, *because* they would reduce pages is the bogus item, not the would be item for itself.

 

If such an item would be in the game it would multiply your current fuel skimming ability,

with a prereq of high engines it would even more break the game, as people with high AP can skim more fuel, but with high engine plus advanced fuel shuttles they can skim even more fuel than

the ones who have no high AP to start with.

 

So please keep this seperate:

1) Fuel production gathering (which I think is fine)

2) surplus output of orders, which bogs down turn processing, which *may* be a problem

with 800+ AP Skimmers *just* for fuel.

 

And as stated above, Advanced Fuel Shuttles will *not* help you with pages, as we are all greedy

 

And no, I have no high AP skimmers (I think currently a 20 AP skimmer is the highest I have in operation).

 

 

Actually, I think that a more efficient fuel skimmer would cut down on orders and AP's spent skimming, especially if the skimmer were about 12,000 tons or bigger.

 

Right now the most efficient skimmer is a small ship doing as many skims as possible. An old design of mine was about 8400 tons and would skim for 40, 80, 160 AP's and so on as engines got better. If you needed more fuel you just build more ships.

 

Now with much better engines I can build skimmers that will easily skim 12M tons of fuel a turn. These are still pretty small relative to everything else, but there is no incentive to build bigger ones. My engines are so good the economics says to just build better engines to make the original fuel shuttle capture more fuel.

 

Unlike some other resources there is a finite need for fuel. Having more is not necessarily better or worthwhile. The greatest need is to have piles of fuel scattered all over the place and to be able to refuel in remote locations. Since you need the remote and moving aspect of refueling that pretty much rules out using installations, and it has been pointed out how inefficient they really are at this point of the game development.

 

One suggestion that has come up with some of my associates is that Total Allies could be able to refuel each others fleets using some sort of a Fuel order. This may be only a minor reduction in skimming needs but it would help and it makes sense.

 

I would also like to see an advanced fuel shuttle that is more efficient and is bigger. This has at least 2 major advantages that I see; more fuel per skim and the move from standard electronics to advanced. I am finding it a bit of a pain to keep needing to retool for basic materials when 90% of everything else has moved along to the advanced varieties.

 

Fuel is a major concern for the empire on the move. Less so for the empire that is staying closer to home. It is also a concern for those devoted to missiles/fighter and drones, but to a lesser degree I would think. As the need for more fuel increases the only real option to us is to build more and more skimmer fleets.

 

One last thought -

 

Hindsight being what it is I think that expanding fuel skimming potential to the entire range of planets and atmospheres was not a good long term move. The game started out, at least in documentation, with fuel skimming being only available at Gas Giants. The change to allow skimming at other types of planets has been very beneficial to all, but now I wonder if was a wise move. IMHO of course.

 

[El Capitan]

Nothing can happen in the middle of a convoy route. Once they start running they run to completion so it is only the first encounter that can possibly trigger a battle etc. Since they run to completion there is no chance for another empire's fleet to somehow slip into the pathway after part of the run has been accomplished.

 

That's good to know. Thanks for the info.

 

 

 

I would also like to see an advanced fuel shuttle that is more efficient and is bigger. This has at least 2 major advantages that I see; more fuel per skim and the move from standard electronics to advanced. I am finding it a bit of a pain to keep needing to retool for basic materials when 90% of everything else has moved along to the advanced varieties.

 

Moving from standard to advanced components would be very welcomed and was also one of my original arguments for an advanced fuel shuttle. Anything that can streamline production is a plus, as it is a very cumbersome though necessary part of the game.

[El Capitan]

Presuming El Capitan is correct what does an advanced fuel shuttle do to speed up the process on a permanent basis?

 

Lord Uriel

 

 

That is a valid point that it wont fix everything and may not even speed things up. But it's very possible that it will help keep things from getting ever further out of control.

 

If thousands of pages of useless results are being generated from skims alone as it is now, what will it be like 3 years from now? Even worse is my guess. Yes, there will always be players that don't have the new tech or players that don't convert over to it if it were available. But as the game goes on, empires will expand and absorb new HWs. It is at these HWs where the new tech can be easily implemented (in fact, it would be downright idiotic not to) which otherwise would have added thousands more pages of waste with the use of older tech. Also, if new empires know that the advanced tech is out there, they can better plan for future implementation.

 

So no, I don't think it will reverse the process but it could go a long way in preventing the situation from getting worse.

 

And yes, a quicker and more substantial fix might be made by tinkering with the code. But as I said before, even if an advanced fuel shuttle did nothing to decrease processing time, I, and others, still think it is a needed addition to the game.

[Drasn]

Another way to look at the problem would be to have advanced Jump Drives that no longer require fuel, drawing their energy from the ether, another dimension, whatever. Advanced empires would only need fuel for building things. That would solve turn size for advanced empires. Can't say what it would do to game balance.

[hobknob]

Another way to look at the problem would be to have advanced Jump Drives that no longer require fuel, drawing their energy from the ether, another dimension, whatever. Advanced empires would only need fuel for building things. That would solve turn size for advanced empires. Can't say what it would do to game balance.

 

 

No fuel would mean no limitation on movement. That would probably break the game for older positions. Fuel is the most limiting factor in a large empires ability to wage war. Those really big war ships drink up so much fuel that a lot of time, effort and resources have to be invested in setting up a fuel infrastructure.

 

There is also nothing quite like seeing your enemies shiny new WDN stuck in a nexus without enough fuel to move. I have found that it is generally much easier to blockade the fuel rescue ships that to destroy the WDN but the effect is about the same and often lasts for quite a long time. By the time that a rescue actually happens the WDN is now a bit dated tech wise.

 

[ShadowKitsune]

I agree with Hobknob that removing the "need" for Fuel would be a bad move for RTG. I understand the logic behind the idea, and cannot fault the logic, in and of itself. It's just that, as Hobknob said, Fuel is one of the few limiters to outward power projection. (Plus, I like the crunchy logistic bits of the game, of which Fuel management is a large part.)

 

I disagree with Hobknob on the earlier statement about Gas Giants, or at least my interpretation of his statement. Pete stated that the game always had the ability to SKIM Fuel from non-Gas Giant worlds at a reduced capacity, it was just a bit of poor documentation that implied that only Gas Giants could be used for Fuel skimming.

 

I have already commented on a way to reduce the reporting of repeated SKIM orders as part of a Convoy Order so I won't repeat it here.

 

FWIW,

-SK

[hobknob]

Looking at some new designs and thinking about more skim orders...

 

I think this proposal might work, but not break anything or be too difficult to implement.

 

I thinking of a global "maintenance SKIM" convoy route hard coded by Pete that would be able to turn off the skim if the fleet is not at a location that would actually benefit from fueling.

 

I routinely have my fleets set to a skim CR but it only does any good if they are at a planet. For exploration fleets they spend the majority of the time at WP's so I generate a ton of SKIM's that do nothing since the fleet is at a WP.

 

[Soerenjev]

What about a small, fast fix. Just reduce the text printed for a skimm order to spmething not longer than 1 row. Instead od this :

"Fleet # XXx at Planet deploys Fuel Shuttles as available and begins to skim for fuel at its current location. All ships are capable of skimming if they have at least one Fuel Shuttle present. 50000 tons of Fuel is recovered as a result of skimming operations"

 

something like this:

"Fleet # XXx at Planet deploys Fuel Shuttles and recovers 50000 tons of fuel".

 

Reduces space needed on turn sheet by about 50%. And it does not even needs a change of code.

[RTGPete]

What about a small, fast fix. Just reduce the text printed for a skimm order to spmething not longer than 1 row. Instead od this :

"Fleet # XXx at Planet deploys Fuel Shuttles as available and begins to skim for fuel at its current location. All ships are capable of skimming if they have at least one Fuel Shuttle present. 50000 tons of Fuel is recovered as a result of skimming operations"

 

something like this:

"Fleet # XXx at Planet deploys Fuel Shuttles and recovers 50000 tons of fuel".

 

Reduces space needed on turn sheet by about 50%. And it does not even needs a change of code.

Good idea. I'll eliminate the "Fleet # xxx at Planet deploys Fuel Shuttles as available..." part entirely and we can see how that works out.

[Breoghan]

I'd imagine there are a few places you you do the same sort of thing, Pete, again without affecting the actual programming - just the printed report. Its something you could do on an on-going basis rather than as a 'must-do-immediately' kinda project.

[RTGPete]

I'd imagine there are a few places you you do the same sort of thing, Pete, again without affecting the actual programming - just the printed report. Its something you could do on an on-going basis rather than as a 'must-do-immediately' kinda project.

Sure. If you see extra lines that you'd rather not have on your printout because they are repetitive (or you figure nobody reads them anyway), let me know and I can take a look at it.

[Breoghan]

How about changing -

Migrant 1 [Priority 10]

-----LC (Load Cargo)-----

LC: 0001, 5000, Textiles, 2000, Construction Materials, 100000, Colonists, 9999

** The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 indicates that he has no Textiles in Imperial Warehouses

100000 Construction Materials(s) are loaded aboard Colonial I #5000 as ordered

** The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 indicates that there are only 794 Colonists(s) stockpiled in

Imperial Warehouses--load quantity reduced accordingly

** Available cargo space only allows for the loading of 150 Colonists(s)

150 Colonists(s) are loaded aboard Colonial I #5000 as ordered

to -

Migrant 1 [Priority 10]

-----LC (Load Cargo)-----

LC: 0001, 5000, Textiles, 2000, Construction Materials, 100000, Colonists, 9999 <<<<<(Is this even necessary? Printed elsewhere!)

The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 reports:

Loaded 0 of 0 available Textiles into 100000 available cargo bays on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

Loaded 100000 of 794000 Construction Materials available into 100000 available cargo bays on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

Loaded 150 of 794 Colonist(s) available into 150 available berthings on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

 

Admittedly, this would call for some programming change so is probably not practical - just thought I'd put it in.

 

And then there's -

Migrant 1 [Priority 30]

-----OC (Offload Cargo)-----

OC: 5000, 0002, ALL

150 Colonists(s) are offloaded to the custody of the Population Group # 0002 Port Authority as ordered

150 Colonists(s) now stockpiled in Imperial Warehouses at Pop Group # 0002

100000 Construction Materials(s) are offloaded to the custody of the Population Group # 0002 Port Authority as ordered

100298 Construction Materials(s) now stockpiled in Imperial Warehouses at Pop Group # 0002

150 Colonists were converted back into regular Population at the conclusion of this mission

changed to -

Migrant 1 [Priority 30]

-----OC (Offload Cargo)-----

OC: 5000, 0002, ALL <<<<<(Again, is this even necessary? Printed elsewhere!)

Population Group # 0002 Port Authority receives he following from Colonial I #5000

150 Colonists(s) as ordered, who are converted back to regular population at mission end

100000 Construction Materials(s) as ordered

 

 

Why is is necessary to document incremental increases in the storehouses as cargo is unloaded? Do any of the players check these running totals? I know that someone, somewhere MIGHT feel an itch to check them once in a blue moon, but as a routine?

 

 

These are straight off the top of my head and obviously I don't know how much would be involved in changing things to accomplish them. Its the idea I'm floating, not the fine detail. On convoy routes alone, considering the number of them criss-crossing the game universe, that adds up to a lot of saved lines on the reports (two or three from each convoy route segment in my examples above).

[ali-t-akua]

How about changing -

Migrant 1 [Priority 10]

-----LC (Load Cargo)-----

LC: 0001, 5000, Textiles, 2000, Construction Materials, 100000, Colonists, 9999

** The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 indicates that he has no Textiles in Imperial Warehouses

100000 Construction Materials(s) are loaded aboard Colonial I #5000 as ordered

** The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 indicates that there are only 794 Colonists(s) stockpiled in

Imperial Warehouses--load quantity reduced accordingly

** Available cargo space only allows for the loading of 150 Colonists(s)

150 Colonists(s) are loaded aboard Colonial I #5000 as ordered

to -

Migrant 1 [Priority 10]

-----LC (Load Cargo)-----

LC: 0001, 5000, Textiles, 2000, Construction Materials, 100000, Colonists, 9999 <<<<<(Is this even necessary? Printed elsewhere!)

The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 reports:

Loaded 0 of 0 available Textiles into 100000 available cargo bays on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

Loaded 100000 of 794000 Construction Materials available into 100000 available cargo bays on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

Loaded 150 of 794 Colonist(s) available into 150 available berthings on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

 

Admittedly, this would call for some programming change so is probably not practical - just thought I'd put it in.

 

And then there's -

Migrant 1 [Priority 30]

-----OC (Offload Cargo)-----

OC: 5000, 0002, ALL

150 Colonists(s) are offloaded to the custody of the Population Group # 0002 Port Authority as ordered

150 Colonists(s) now stockpiled in Imperial Warehouses at Pop Group # 0002

100000 Construction Materials(s) are offloaded to the custody of the Population Group # 0002 Port Authority as ordered

100298 Construction Materials(s) now stockpiled in Imperial Warehouses at Pop Group # 0002

150 Colonists were converted back into regular Population at the conclusion of this mission

changed to -

Migrant 1 [Priority 30]

-----OC (Offload Cargo)-----

OC: 5000, 0002, ALL <<<<<(Again, is this even necessary? Printed elsewhere!)

Population Group # 0002 Port Authority receives he following from Colonial I #5000

150 Colonists(s) as ordered, who are converted back to regular population at mission end

100000 Construction Materials(s) as ordered

 

 

Why is is necessary to document incremental increases in the storehouses as cargo is unloaded? Do any of the players check these running totals? I know that someone, somewhere MIGHT feel an itch to check them once in a blue moon, but as a routine?

 

 

These are straight off the top of my head and obviously I don't know how much would be involved in changing things to accomplish them. Its the idea I'm floating, not the fine detail. On convoy routes alone, considering the number of them criss-crossing the game universe, that adds up to a lot of saved lines on the reports (two or three from each convoy route segment in my examples above).

 

Breoghan, I think restating the order is necessary for debugging errors. I believe that this code is used for regular trade as well so eliminating it would mean it is not found anywhere. Besides flipping between the Convoy route orders section and results is very timeconsuming when your report is hundreds of pages long so removing it makes it a harder to work with your convoy routes.

 

On the other hand, beside that one issue, I think the rest of your idea is a good one and could save some pages.

[hobknob]

How about changing -

Migrant 1 [Priority 10]

-----LC (Load Cargo)-----

LC: 0001, 5000, Textiles, 2000, Construction Materials, 100000, Colonists, 9999

** The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 indicates that he has no Textiles in Imperial Warehouses

100000 Construction Materials(s) are loaded aboard Colonial I #5000 as ordered

** The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 indicates that there are only 794 Colonists(s) stockpiled in

Imperial Warehouses--load quantity reduced accordingly

** Available cargo space only allows for the loading of 150 Colonists(s)

150 Colonists(s) are loaded aboard Colonial I #5000 as ordered

to -

Migrant 1 [Priority 10]

-----LC (Load Cargo)-----

LC: 0001, 5000, Textiles, 2000, Construction Materials, 100000, Colonists, 9999 <<<<<(Is this even necessary? Printed elsewhere!)

The Imperial Port Authority at Population Group # 0001 reports:

Loaded 0 of 0 available Textiles into 100000 available cargo bays on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

Loaded 100000 of 794000 Construction Materials available into 100000 available cargo bays on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

Loaded 150 of 794 Colonist(s) available into 150 available berthings on Colonial I #5000 as ordered

 

Admittedly, this would call for some programming change so is probably not practical - just thought I'd put it in.

 

And then there's -

Migrant 1 [Priority 30]

-----OC (Offload Cargo)-----

OC: 5000, 0002, ALL

150 Colonists(s) are offloaded to the custody of the Population Group # 0002 Port Authority as ordered

150 Colonists(s) now stockpiled in Imperial Warehouses at Pop Group # 0002

100000 Construction Materials(s) are offloaded to the custody of the Population Group # 0002 Port Authority as ordered

100298 Construction Materials(s) now stockpiled in Imperial Warehouses at Pop Group # 0002

150 Colonists were converted back into regular Population at the conclusion of this mission

changed to -

Migrant 1 [Priority 30]

-----OC (Offload Cargo)-----

OC: 5000, 0002, ALL <<<<<(Again, is this even necessary? Printed elsewhere!)

Population Group # 0002 Port Authority receives he following from Colonial I #5000

150 Colonists(s) as ordered, who are converted back to regular population at mission end

100000 Construction Materials(s) as ordered

 

 

Why is is necessary to document incremental increases in the storehouses as cargo is unloaded? Do any of the players check these running totals? I know that someone, somewhere MIGHT feel an itch to check them once in a blue moon, but as a routine?

 

 

These are straight off the top of my head and obviously I don't know how much would be involved in changing things to accomplish them. Its the idea I'm floating, not the fine detail. On convoy routes alone, considering the number of them criss-crossing the game universe, that adds up to a lot of saved lines on the reports (two or three from each convoy route segment in my examples above).

 

 

Yes, I check the totals just to make sure that everything is moving around like it is supposed to. I also check the load orders to find out why something didn't load as expected. Finally found the last one after 3 fleets failed to load the Colony beacon as instructed, turned out to be a global exclusion to the LC ALL order.

 

I like most of the flavor language that shows up, at least the first time, but after the first time it is glossed over.

 

[Breoghan]

Yes, I check the totals just to make sure that everything is moving around like it is supposed to. I also check the load orders to find out why something didn't load as expected. Finally found the last one after 3 fleets failed to load the Colony beacon as instructed, turned out to be a global exclusion to the LC ALL order.

That's all on the Fleet Report, Imperial Stockpiles and the Convoy Route Report pages, I'd have thought.

 

I like most of the flavor language that shows up, at least the first time, but after the first time it is glossed over.

That was the main thing I was referring to. It is automated roleplay language of sorts for the first couple of times you see it, and after that it serves no purpose whatever. It simply takes up space. A lot of space.

 

Anyway, as I said, it was the idea I was floating. Nothing more.

 

Be lucky,

Breoghan