WKE235 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Since Pete said "Flag Bridges uses a threat evaluation system to weed out nonthreatening entities from the primary targeting display", we need to understand the term NON-THREATENING. You can interpret nonthreatening to mean anything, but to me, the only nonthreatening ship is an unarmed ship. Think about it. One 'screen' armed with a Siege Tachyon Beam is relatively harmless, but if someone constructs a fleet of 10,000 or 20,000 of these little guys, suddenly it's putting out credible damage. What was once harmless is now a viable threat. Sadly, the results of the last battle seem to back that interpretation. Obviously Flag Bridges can be useful against already existing screens that were built without weapons... BUT I'd say that that from now on, every screen design will carry at least one weapon system. That being the case, the current crop of screens may die off, but a new crop of them will replace them. Perhaps <crosses fingers> the Mk2 or higher versions will expand the definition of nonthreatening to include a 'real' threat evaluation routine built into the RTG combat program... If they do not, then what point is there having a higher level Flag Bridge?? I think we all have the answer now. MK I Flag bridges are useless (USELESS) as any ship with a weapon on it will be considered a threat .. and so any screen ship with a weapon still protects your main batteries. So to everyone out there, start building those 20,000 per turn in screen ships with tiny weapons. Oh sure, the MK I Flag bridge may be useful for older non-weaponed screens. But those will be in the minority pretty damn quick. So once more there is no proper way to get around the damn things. The basic problem is the Flag Bridge does not use a proper threat evaluation system. It appears to merely eliminate non-threatening ships (those with no weapons) from the target list. And of course we can all see how easy it is to get around that limitation. Just put weapons on the screens. Now the Mk I Flag Bridge is useless. A proper threat evaluation system would rank targets based on the tonnage of weapons on the target ships, at the very least (even better would be a ranking based on potential damage points .. but that could be the Mk II version). Then the computer could decide .. gee, do I fire on the ship with 400 tons of weapons, or the one with 2,000,000 tons of weapons. Hard choice that. Lastly, since the Flag Bridge is not using a decent threat evaluation system, the whole statement about "They also limit the need for the typical worthless friendly screens as well, by way of allowing friendly targeting onto enemy weapons platforms much earlier in the battle" is also wrong. As was seen in the posted battle that started this thread, the lack of screens severely hurt the attacker. Since the flag bridge was too stupid to weed out tiny threats from big ones, their ships were decimated by someone without any flag bridge as the weaponed screens gave them lots of protection. Hence the attacker still could have used LOTS of "worthless" screens, as they would have protected them from the other force. So unless there is still something else hidden in the research trees, then even after 5 1/2 years of research effort, there is STILL no effective way to get around screens. And Pete wonders why people keep building the damn tiny ships. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfouasnon Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 What is probably most disturbing is that Pete is not giving any kind of answer , instead just dead silence...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 What is probably most disturbing is that Pete is not giving any kind of answer , instead just dead silence...... I cannot imagine that this is something Pete is ignoring as he has stressed over and over again that screens are troublesome for the SNROE engine to handle and he has stated clearly that the tech (flag bridge) was in the game to handle the problem. What I do believe is that Flag Bridge combat need to be GM supervised, hence the Flagship flag and that Pete simply missed this last turn but since Pete has been silent for almost a week and a half on this issue I simply don't know. I believed the Flag Bridge tech a bit wonky when I found it and hence told Pete whenever I was doing flag bridge battles. There are a lot of questions that need to be answered regarding how Flag Bridges really work. For example what is considered threats by Flag Bridges, ships with only CIDS shoot down your fighters, are they a threat. Ships with only computers give Fire Control to the fleet are they considered a threat? Should threat be considered from damage per ship? Cheers /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfouasnon Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 When I wrote that statement , what I would at least ask for from Pete is something like " guys , I am aware of the situation , something does not look right , and I am working on it to find out what happened " . This thread started just after the last turn cycle and everyone got their turns , and since the turns have been sent out , not a single peep over our concerns....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Uriel Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Perhaps it's a tech issue, which means he doesn't want to interfer with his prime directive. On a somewhat seperate note, I would like to know when is the best time to contact him. Twenty-six attempted phone calls in the past three weeks. I believe I have a simple question, but I think I may never find out the answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cestvel Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Perhaps it's a tech issue, which means he doesn't want to interfer with his prime directive. On a somewhat seperate note, I would like to know when is the best time to contact him. Twenty-six attempted phone calls in the past three weeks. I believe I have a simple question, but I think I may never find out the answer. Ask your question here and you may get an answer from the community But getting no answer from the GMs you pay good money for is not a nice business trait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Deependra Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Before people panic about the Flag Bridge, remember its the first tech in a new path. There is still the MK II, Mk III and so on and possibly other techs branching off it as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconutheads Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Lord Deependra, I think you would be right if there hadn't been two completely different results from the same Mk 1 version of this system. In Locklyn's battle, the Flag Bridges appeared to work as everyone seemed to expect them to work, whereas in the second more recent example, the Flag Bridges did not seem to function at all. The big mystery (in my mind) is why the completely different results? Was the Flag Bridge performance in the first battle TOO effective? So much so that Pete tamed down (nerfed) the usefulness of Mk1 Flag Bridges leaving them practically useless in the second known battle? Were the battles that fundamentally different to cause the end results to vary to that extreme? In the end, all the consternation seems to stem from the two vastly different results with the same Mk I system. Why did that happen?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Deependra Posted March 17, 2009 Report Share Posted March 17, 2009 Lord Deependra, I think you would be right if there hadn't been two completely different results from the same Mk 1 version of this system. In Locklyn's battle, the Flag Bridges appeared to work as everyone seemed to expect them to work, whereas in the second more recent example, the Flag Bridges did not seem to function at all. The big mystery (in my mind) is why the completely different results? Was the Flag Bridge performance in the first battle TOO effective? So much so that Pete tamed down (nerfed) the usefulness of Mk1 Flag Bridges leaving them practically useless in the second known battle? Were the battles that fundamentally different to cause the end results to vary to that extreme? In the end, all the consternation seems to stem from the two vastly different results with the same Mk I system. Why did that happen?? In Locklyn's battle, there were a lot of non-threatening ships which were ignored. In this battle, there were no non-threatening ships. A Mk I Flag Bridge seems to make your fleet target threatening ships only until there are no such ships left. A threatening ship is any with a weapon, a computer or CIDS. CIDS destroy fighters and drones and so weaken the fleet and a re therefore a threat. Computers greatly multiply the effective firepower fo the fleet (by shooing at multiple screens) and so are a threat as well. This is a step in the right direction, as it effectively negates some screen ships (and I suspect a lot of lumps of armour have been built in the past) but is not a solution to the screen problem. But as I said before, it is only Mk I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Unfortunately there is nothing in the text or otherwise so indicated apart from higher bridgerating from the higher marks I've found so far but we will see... Cheers /Lars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Carpenter Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 I would like to add that our new Resurrection Ship has enhanced the screens through out our empire as the pilots and crew do not die! Now the screen pilots dive into the way of guns targeting the larger ships without any fear! It does look like blocks of only Tckon 68 are now useless as screens. This was the easiest screen to build. MAC is now searching for a catapult to throw the 1000 ton blocks of Tckon 68 type ships at the enemy fleets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelnett_of_Kraan Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 So SCRP 'em! Then build "ships" consisting of 990 tons of armor and a CIDS system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chairman lar Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 I would like to add that our new Resurrection Ship has enhanced the screens through out our empire as the pilots and crew do not die! Now the screen pilots dive into the way of guns targeting the larger ships without any fear! It does look like blocks of only Tckon 68 are now useless as screens. This was the easiest screen to build. MAC is now searching for a catapult to throw the 1000 ton blocks of Tckon 68 type ships at the enemy fleets. Our pilots behaved in much the same way, but the survivors felt the resurrection aspect was somewhat overstated. I might suggest an Arbalest instead of a catapult; it's more of a 'point & click' application. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted March 18, 2009 Report Share Posted March 18, 2009 Pete, Any chance for an answer on this thread? /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconutheads Posted March 19, 2009 Report Share Posted March 19, 2009 Pete, Any chance for an answer on this thread? /Locklyn Sadly enough it appears the answer is no tho hopefully the reason is because he is concentrating on turn processing duty. Hopefully once that is done we will get an answer or a 'no comment' as the minimum response. I would like to add that our new Resurrection Ship has enhanced the screens through out our empire as the pilots and crew do not die! Now the screen pilots dive into the way of guns targeting the larger ships without any fear! It does look like blocks of only Tckon 68 are now useless as screens. This was the easiest screen to build. MAC is now searching for a catapult to throw the 1000 ton blocks of Tckon 68 type ships at the enemy fleets. These 'Resurrection' ships must be new indeed. All the dead pieces/parts we recovered from the Black Cloud homeworlds were quite dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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