Please prevent cheating

[Lord Deependra]

Based on this discussion, it would seem to me that pretty much everyone is cheating, at least in the opinion of someone else. A large part of the reason is the hidden aspects of the game - no-one really knows what is possible until they try it. And, like all other games, approximatations and compromises are made between playablity and reality.

 

I propose we make up a list of all things that could be considered cheats. That gets things out in the open and puts everyone on the same level. Pete can then make a ruling on an issue if he wishes or make it a priority to code around it.

 

Here are a few to start things off:-

 

1) You can AC a character to another system (effectively teleporting them across light years).

2) You can transfer colonists to another empire via a TR or OC order.

3) You can transfer troops to another empire via a TR or OC order.

[Lord Deependra]

Based on this discussion, it would seem to me that pretty much everyone is cheating, at least in the opinion of someone else. A large part of the reason is the hidden aspects of the game - no-one really knows what is possible until they try it. And, like all other games, approximatations and compromises are made between playablity and reality.

 

I propose we make up a list of all things that could be considered cheats. That gets things out in the open and puts everyone on the same level. Pete can then make a ruling on an issue if he wishes or make it a priority to code around it.

 

Here are a few to start things off:-

 

1) You can AC a character to another system (effectively teleporting them across light years).

2) You can transfer colonists to another empire via a TR or OC order.

3) You can transfer troops to another empire via a TR or OC order.

 

4) You can transfer fighters and drones between empires.

[Lord Deependra]

It's a pure exploit in my opinion. It takes a lot more to build troops than just the materials. A lot more investment than a pop group with a TC.

 

Anyone doing it. Anyone. Is essentially cheating in my book, and I have zero respect for them or their gamesmanship.

 

Not that anyone doing it cares about that.

 

Edit: Just make divisions non-tradeable. Period. You can build them, and you can assign them to an army. That's it. And if a pop group is captured, all divisions inside are automatically wiped if not killed in battle. End of exploit.

 

 

I have been considering this and have come to the conclusion that you are correct. I have transferred a dozen divisions between my empires and I now see that this is cheating of the highest degree.

 

However, simply making divisions non-tradeable will not fix the problem. I propose the following changes.

1) Stop all transfers of population out of conquered population groups. Otherwise they could be sent to the conquerer's home world and made into troops of the conquerer's race.

2) Stop the construction of all divisions in conquered pop groups. Again, to stop them being transformed into the conquerer's race.

3) Stop all transfers of population into any pop groups that your empire did not build.

4) Stop all transfers of divisions into any pop group that your empire did not build.

5) Stop the transfer of fighters and drones between empires.

 

Once these rules are implemented, I shall, of course, drop the game and I would expect any other player who has cheated so heinously to do the same.

[cestvel]

What is the problem with fighters and drones in this regard?

 

These are tech items and only get the pulse engines from the new owner.

 

Otherwise, you are fully correct with that list.

 

Though I support implementing the pop changes as well, I think that would be rather unfair for the players who have not

done this already. But one could live with the transfered troops till now and could implement the changes Pierre supposed.

 

If it came to a vote, I would still vote to implement the changes to pop transfer behavior.

[Lord Deependra]

What is the problem with fighters and drones in this regard?

 

These are tech items and only get the pulse engines from the new owner.

 

Otherwise, you are fully correct with that list.

 

Though I support implementing the pop changes as well, I think that would be rather unfair for the players who have not

done this already. But one could live with the transfered troops till now and could implement the changes Pierre supposed.

 

If it came to a vote, I would still vote to implement the changes to pop transfer behavior.

 

Fighters and Drones are exactly the same as troops. One empire can build them and then give them to another empire with better Pulse Engines and suddenly there is a big jump in power for no cost.

 

I agree with Peter and Marcus. Anyone who has cheated should be banned. You are either playing honestly or you are scum. End of story.

 

I admit I am scum. I have blatently cheated at every turn and that is not fair on Pete nor on any honest player. I call on everyone else who has cheated to join me in resigning from the game. Anyone who has done ANYTHING to change population from one race to another knew what they were doing and there is no excuse.

 

I would like to apologise to the vast majority of honest players out there for sullying this excellent game.

[Breoghan]

Transferring divisions deliberately? Ok, I can see that this would not be kosher.

 

Transfer of tech, including fighters and drones? That's saying that you can't trade so it wipes out a major segment of the game (what about EXPL finds? They often come under the same 'advanced tech' heading - are you suggesting these shouldn't be allowed either?)

 

Population? Why not - they ARE a part of the conqueror's position (call them forced labour, slaves, willing converts - all would fit in RL situations throughout history). Not making troops out of them makes no sense at all - as recently as WWII there were auxilliary units of the Waffen SS even that were formed from volunteers from conquered territories.

 

Inconvenience and rationalization is not a good reason for changing things. By all means, step on division transfer. That makes sense. The rest? It doesn't meet the taste test.

[Lord Deependra]

Transferring divisions deliberately? Ok, I can see that this would not be kosher.

 

Transfer of tech, including fighters and drones? That's saying that you can't trade so it wipes out a major segment of the game (what about EXPL finds? They often come under the same 'advanced tech' heading - are you suggesting these shouldn't be allowed either?)

 

Population? Why not - they ARE a part of the conqueror's position (call them forced labour, slaves, willing converts - all would fit in RL situations throughout history). Not making troops out of them makes no sense at all - as recently as WWII there were auxilliary units of the Waffen SS even that were formed from volunteers from conquered territories.

 

Inconvenience and rationalization is not a good reason for changing things. By all means, step on division transfer. That makes sense. The rest? It doesn't meet the taste test.

 

Most tech items are fine because the item is what it is. The problem with Divisions, Fighters, Drones and Population is, when you transfer them, much of their value changes.

 

A Nuclear Transwarp Drive (for example) is the same no matter the empire so transferring them around is no problem.

 

Fighters and Drones derive much of their value from the empire's Pulse engine tech. Give them to another empire and their value changes for no additional cost.

 

Divisions by themselves are almost worthless. It is the racial stats and ground tech that gives them value.

 

Population values change when you transfer them to other races. A conquered brain blob population, for example, should die if you move them to another planet and should make very weak troops. There is no difference whatsoever between building divisions on a conquered world and transferring divisions to another empire.

 

The consensus seems to be that transferring divisions is wrong, so logically, transferring these other things is just as wrong.

 

Personally, I transferred several thousand population between two empires a few turns ago so one of my empires could construct items for the other. Ironically, I was transferring them back this turn as my new improved trade process makes this inefficient. Nevertheless, I cheated to gain a strategic advantage.

[WKE235]

Transferring divisions deliberately? Ok, I can see that this would not be kosher.

 

Transfer of tech, including fighters and drones? That's saying that you can't trade so it wipes out a major segment of the game (what about EXPL finds? They often come under the same 'advanced tech' heading - are you suggesting these shouldn't be allowed either?)

 

Population? Why not - they ARE a part of the conqueror's position (call them forced labour, slaves, willing converts - all would fit in RL situations throughout history). Not making troops out of them makes no sense at all - as recently as WWII there were auxilliary units of the Waffen SS even that were formed from volunteers from conquered territories.

 

Inconvenience and rationalization is not a good reason for changing things. By all means, step on division transfer. That makes sense. The rest? It doesn't meet the taste test.

 

The basic problem with Population is the whole change them into cargo (Colonists), then change them back process. When changed to cargo(colonists), the game does not remember they are Pop "X". So when they are off loaded and they change back to Population, they automatically become your Population again. This causes problems with conquered colonies and worlds. I would love to be able to keep moving colonists from a conquered HW to similar race conquered colonies, to grow them, but I can't as the colonists transform, and hence they cannot offload on the colony. They only way to get this to work is to run the colonies through the magic transformation process (Load from old colony, Offload to new colony under your racial ID), losing some pop in the process if the world is not in you best colonization zone. And then you can transport all you want from the captured HW as they transform via magic as well. So population transfers like this are needed in order to make the conquered colonies / assets more viable, more useful.

 

Of course while this sucks to have to do this (using magic transformation to make the colonies useful), the racial restriction as in place was done to prevent direct cheating, the open transferring of POP between players to benefit one or the other. So it's not something that can be simply removed. Quite simply I see it as a needed evil in the game to help ensure balance.

 

All this leads to one question then. If people are finding ways to get around the rules through clever manipulation of colony ownership, then what can be done to address that issue and yet still keep the game still balanced so those with conquests can continue to use the assets properly?

[cestvel]

Transferring divisions deliberately? Ok, I can see that this would not be kosher.

 

Transfer of tech, including fighters and drones? That's saying that you can't trade so it wipes out a major segment of the game (what about EXPL finds? They often come under the same 'advanced tech' heading - are you suggesting these shouldn't be allowed either?)

 

Population? Why not - they ARE a part of the conqueror's position (call them forced labour, slaves, willing converts - all would fit in RL situations throughout history). Not making troops out of them makes no sense at all - as recently as WWII there were auxilliary units of the Waffen SS even that were formed from volunteers from conquered territories.

 

Inconvenience and rationalization is not a good reason for changing things. By all means, step on division transfer. That makes sense. The rest? It doesn't meet the taste test.

 

Most tech items are fine because the item is what it is. The problem with Divisions, Fighters, Drones and Population is, when you transfer them, much of their value changes.

 

A Nuclear Transwarp Drive (for example) is the same no matter the empire so transferring them around is no problem.

 

Fighters and Drones derive much of their value from the empire's Pulse engine tech. Give them to another empire and their value changes for no additional cost.

 

Divisions by themselves are almost worthless. It is the racial stats and ground tech that gives them value.

 

Population values change when you transfer them to other races. A conquered brain blob population, for example, should die if you move them to another planet and should make very weak troops. There is no difference whatsoever between building divisions on a conquered world and transferring divisions to another empire.

 

The consensus seems to be that transferring divisions is wrong, so logically, transferring these other things is just as wrong.

 

Personally, I transferred several thousand population between two empires a few turns ago so one of my empires could construct items for the other. Ironically, I was transferring them back this turn as my new improved trade process makes this inefficient. Nevertheless, I cheated to gain a strategic advantage.

 

 

 

To make Fighters and Drones useful, you still need to build a ship to employ them, that needs at least some industry.

For divisions to be employed, you do not need industry at all, you could get away even without a single pop, just a colony beacon may be enough.

 

Also I see Pulse drives as minor upgrades, not the huge difference as between 0.33 and 12 str divisions.

[Lord Deependra]

Transferring divisions deliberately? Ok, I can see that this would not be kosher.

 

Transfer of tech, including fighters and drones? That's saying that you can't trade so it wipes out a major segment of the game (what about EXPL finds? They often come under the same 'advanced tech' heading - are you suggesting these shouldn't be allowed either?)

 

Population? Why not - they ARE a part of the conqueror's position (call them forced labour, slaves, willing converts - all would fit in RL situations throughout history). Not making troops out of them makes no sense at all - as recently as WWII there were auxilliary units of the Waffen SS even that were formed from volunteers from conquered territories.

 

Inconvenience and rationalization is not a good reason for changing things. By all means, step on division transfer. That makes sense. The rest? It doesn't meet the taste test.

 

Most tech items are fine because the item is what it is. The problem with Divisions, Fighters, Drones and Population is, when you transfer them, much of their value changes.

 

A Nuclear Transwarp Drive (for example) is the same no matter the empire so transferring them around is no problem.

 

Fighters and Drones derive much of their value from the empire's Pulse engine tech. Give them to another empire and their value changes for no additional cost.

 

Divisions by themselves are almost worthless. It is the racial stats and ground tech that gives them value.

 

Population values change when you transfer them to other races. A conquered brain blob population, for example, should die if you move them to another planet and should make very weak troops. There is no difference whatsoever between building divisions on a conquered world and transferring divisions to another empire.

 

The consensus seems to be that transferring divisions is wrong, so logically, transferring these other things is just as wrong.

 

Personally, I transferred several thousand population between two empires a few turns ago so one of my empires could construct items for the other. Ironically, I was transferring them back this turn as my new improved trade process makes this inefficient. Nevertheless, I cheated to gain a strategic advantage.

 

 

 

To make Fighters and Drones useful, you still need to build a ship to employ them, that needs at least some industry.

For divisions to be employed, you do not need industry at all, you could get away even without a single pop, just a colony beacon may be enough.

 

Also I see Pulse drives as minor upgrades, not the huge difference as between 0.33 and 12 str divisions.

 

True, the difference in Fighters and Drones is not as great as for Divisions, but its the principle of the thing.

And I would have thought you would transfer divisions more for the TAC bonuses than for the racial bonuses.

[Lord Deependra]

Transferring divisions deliberately? Ok, I can see that this would not be kosher.

 

Transfer of tech, including fighters and drones? That's saying that you can't trade so it wipes out a major segment of the game (what about EXPL finds? They often come under the same 'advanced tech' heading - are you suggesting these shouldn't be allowed either?)

 

Population? Why not - they ARE a part of the conqueror's position (call them forced labour, slaves, willing converts - all would fit in RL situations throughout history). Not making troops out of them makes no sense at all - as recently as WWII there were auxilliary units of the Waffen SS even that were formed from volunteers from conquered territories.

 

Inconvenience and rationalization is not a good reason for changing things. By all means, step on division transfer. That makes sense. The rest? It doesn't meet the taste test.

 

The basic problem with Population is the whole change them into cargo (Colonists), then change them back process. When changed to cargo(colonists), the game does not remember they are Pop "X". So when they are off loaded and they change back to Population, they automatically become your Population again. This causes problems with conquered colonies and worlds. I would love to be able to keep moving colonists from a conquered HW to similar race conquered colonies, to grow them, but I can't as the colonists transform, and hence they cannot offload on the colony. They only way to get this to work is to run the colonies through the magic transformation process (Load from old colony, Offload to new colony under your racial ID), losing some pop in the process if the world is not in you best colonization zone. And then you can transport all you want from the captured HW as they transform via magic as well. So population transfers like this are needed in order to make the conquered colonies / assets more viable, more useful.

 

Of course while this sucks to have to do this (using magic transformation to make the colonies useful), the racial restriction as in place was done to prevent direct cheating, the open transferring of POP between players to benefit one or the other. So it's not something that can be simply removed. Quite simply I see it as a needed evil in the game to help ensure balance.

 

All this leads to one question then. If people are finding ways to get around the rules through clever manipulation of colony ownership, then what can be done to address that issue and yet still keep the game still balanced so those with conquests can continue to use the assets properly?

 

Personally, I have never had a problem with just turning them into colonists and doing a TR via a Transportation Centre. Similarly, loading them onto a fleet and OCing them seems to work fine. In other words, captured population seems to work exacly the same as population on your home world.

[Breoghan]

Edit: Just make divisions non-tradeable. Period. You can build them, and you can assign them to an army. That's it. And if a pop group is captured, all divisions inside are automatically wiped if not killed in battle. End of exploit.

That would work.

 

Not being able to set up a separate colony on a world and station troops there to assist in its defence though? That's like saying you can't have allies - in a war game of all things (it doesn't matter if they are allies from other player's positions or second positions of the same player - as long as they don't become the possessions (and take on the characteristics) of the pop group they have been stationed there to help protect I can see nothing 'improper' about this ethically or otherwise). If there were to be a ban on having ground troops assist the home grown troops of another position, shouldn't the same thinking be applied to allied fleets? That would make no more sense than the first suggestion - which in turn suggests to me that I have misunderstood the whole contention. Clarification would be helpful because logic doesn't fit in too well with my first impression of the point.

[Flagritz]

If we are talking about making this game realistic then any trade of items between empires is unrealistic, not just troops, population and fighters.

 

Fo example: Race A is a small brain in the jar race, highly advanced able to build Uber weapon which they give to race B a not very developed large insectoid race who supposedly can now just use this item from the box?

 

Do they use the same electricity and wattage? Does there computer systems use the same language and commands? Do they operate the device the same (one has tentacles the other insectoid probes?) Do they use the same tools to adjust and maintain the item?

The small race need small access ports to be able to enter and maintain a device, how does a giant race use those small access ports to maintain it?

If Race B has no comprehension of the technology and the theories behind that weapon system how can they comprehend integrating and maintaining the device let alone using it?

 

Alternatively Race A takes over a colnoy for Race B, builds lots of advanced industrials and deep core surveyors, technology miles ahead of what race B has, gives the colony back and everything runs perfectly, even though Race B has no idea how to build these complexs....

 

None of the trading in this games make any major sense in reality.

 

However this isnt real life and for playability we allow trades between empires.

If you ban trade of some items then I say ban them all.

 

But if its acceptable for one empire to be able to provide game winning space tech and advanced installations to another race then it is acceptable for the ground pounder rac to provide there expertise to make a brain in the jars army stronger.

[Flagritz]

I agree with Peter and Marcus. Anyone who has cheated should be banned. You are either playing honestly or you are scum. End of story.

 

I admit I am scum. I have blatently cheated at every turn and that is not fair on Pete nor on any honest player. I call on everyone else who has cheated to join me in resigning from the game. Anyone who has done ANYTHING to change population from one race to another knew what they were doing and there is no excuse.

 

I would like to apologise to the vast majority of honest players out there for sullying this excellent game.

 

 

I am scum also, Ive transfered pop and troops between empires, up until now I did not consider that cheating, but Lord Deependra makes a valid point.

 

I will admit I have done it, will no one else join us?

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

Ah, if only there were a way to track the race of every colonist and troop unit, and it was never allowed to change...