Setup questions

[cestvel]

It's up to you to make those choices. Good luck in your future endeavors against a lifeform that has taken the ground combats system a bit more seriously and are physically tougher than you are. You will need it.

 

But that is not my point. My issue is not with how ground combat works in SN. RTG can simulate any virtual world they want in any way they want. My issue is that I don't understand why they chose a virtual world where physical characteristics would play a dominant role in planetary conquest. That is much more a fantasy virtual world than a scifi world. SN is advertised as a scifi game and in a scifi context one tries to to provide at least scientifically plausible scenarios. Having planetary conquest driven by lifeform characterisitcs just does not seem plausible for a species at a tech level capable of galatic conquest. [Having it driven by WWI technologies also seems implausible, but that's a different issue...]

 

Battlestar Galactica has only small arms. They even do not have big caliber weapons to kill the cylons.

That should not have happened in your reasoning, right?

[H. S. Lahman]

Sure. But when that intelligent gopher gets into space he will have the technology to use a .50 Weatherby if he needs it because...

 

Interesting assumption. But humans had no such cybernetic tech when they became space faring. And SNROTE seems to function under the assumption that historical humanity would have a perfectly normal start-up position with its 2009 tech, (or maybe even 1970) if only we had found a warp point. Yet the cybernetic tech you assume is far off. (Right now, it is only conjectured to be possible.)

 

There's a big difference between being space faring and being able to engage in galactic conquest. Sure we might be able to mop up some stone age planets but they wouldn't be space faring. For galactic conquest you need to take on other space faring species. The likelihood of encountering a space faring species whose technology was not at least hundreds or thousands of years ahead of '09 human tech is infiniteismal and we would become somebody's lunch.

 

Your psycology is showing. (No doubt influenced by your biology. ) You assume that the enemy will design his equipment for the strongest possible armor, and mount the biggest possible gun to beat it. (Your own choice shows that you do NOT assume that best possible armor is the only valid choice a designer could make.) Another race could as easily choose speed to reduce the chance of getting hit by your guns, and to let him manuever to your rear, where you had to sacrifice armor in order to save weight to mount your gun, allowing his lighter gun to kill. Just as one possible for instance.

 

I afraid I don't think psychology has anything to do with it. You don't know who you might encounter. So it would be silly not to design for the worst case. You would design the best weapons, best armor, best speed, most power, etc., etc. available to your technology into your platform and any trade-offs among them would be made based on the available technology, not the underlying lifeform characteristics that you are augmenting.

 

A high tech species is also going research things like armor and probably entire cybernitc sheathings that would amplify all of its characteristics

 

Even here, biology remains the limiting factor. One key example is modern military aircraft. For decades now, the ability of fighter aircraft to maneuver has been far more limited by the pilot's ability to handle the stress of combat / G forces, etc., than by the structural limitations of the vehicle.

 

Of course. But that is limited by our technology in dealing with gravity and acceleration. The inability of our very primitive technology to neutralize the effects of momentum changes would be one of the reasons we would become someone's lunch if we get too pushy with '09 tech. I think you can bet your farm that in a few hundred years we could do that.

 

On SN using WWI ground tech...

 

Yes. Seriously. Like all other tech advancement, necessity is the mother of invention. No necessity... no little inventions running around to bite ankles. I always figured that all those other SNROTE races managed to unify their home worlds without the bloody history of mankind.

 

On the other hand, one could simulate a human setup in SNROTE by using the standard human biology (zero set-up points) and spending all the saved SRPs on researching ground combat techs. That would produce a situation very similar to early 21st century humanity.

 

And they would get eaten by the first space faring race they encountered. It took us 1.5b years to evolve to our level of technology in a young star system in the 3rd generation of star formation. And we only attained space faring capability in the last half century. The probability that another space faring race got to exactly that same half-century window exactly when we did is too small to think about. If they have less tech, they aren't space faring. If they have more tech they are so far ahead it is inconceivable that we could conquer them.

 

[Obviously for a space opera to be playable, everyone needs to at least start out on an even footing. So everyone in SN starts with roughly the same setup. I am just arguing that such a starting point should be somewhat better than '09 tech because that level of technology is simply not plausible for galactic conquest for a variety of reasons (logisitics, etc.) beyond ground combat. We have no realistically means to get to even our nearest neighboring star. So the tech level should be commensurate with a race that could do so easily. And such a race would not have WWI ground tech.]

[H. S. Lahman]

It seems pretty straight-forward to me. A Tyrannosaurus with power armour and a plasma rifle beats a mouse in power armour with a plasma rifle.

 

Only if T-Rex shoots first; if the mouse shoots first T-Rex, then is toast. That is pretty much my point. Tech is the great equalizer that nullifies the lifeform characteristics.

[H. S. Lahman]

Hmmm. I wish I had started this topic before I did my setup.

 

Could someone put some more words around the techs that affect lifeform characteristics, like Species Engineering? I am unclear about how these are applied. (E.g., does Species Engineering give a different kind of research point that needs to be explicitly applied to specific characteristics or is Species Engineering referenced here an umbrella for researching specific lifeform characterisitcs?) Also, someone mentioned some other exotic research like Corporate Tech that seems to have an effect.

[D.I.E.]

It's up to you to make those choices. Good luck in your future endeavors against a lifeform that has taken the ground combats system a bit more seriously and are physically tougher than you are. You will need it.

 

But that is not my point. My issue is not with how ground combat works in SN. RTG can simulate any virtual world they want in any way they want. My issue is that I don't understand why they chose a virtual world where physical characteristics would play a dominant role in planetary conquest. That is much more a fantasy virtual world than a scifi world. SN is advertised as a scifi game and in a scifi context one tries to to provide at least scientifically plausible scenarios. Having planetary conquest driven by lifeform characterisitcs just does not seem plausible for a species at a tech level capable of galatic conquest. [Having it driven by WWI technologies also seems implausible, but that's a different issue...]

 

Could it really be that simple? That the entire discussion was based upon an assumption that can be boiled down to a single word: "dominant?"

 

OK. Then rest assured H.S., that all is well. Physical characteristics are NOT the "dominant" part in planetary conquest in SNROTE. Technology is the dominant factor, over biology, over leadership, and even over raw numbers. Those other factors are "important" though. And only a fool would ignore them. As I said several times before, a sufficient advantage in technology can overcome a handicap in any other area. But those other areas will never become entirely "irrelevant" in any ground combat situation in the game. (And, I maintain in real life. The contention that better soldiers will not make for a better army, all other things being equal, seems preposterous to me on its face.) And it will always be wise to keep in mind that the greater the handicap, the greater the technology advantage it will take to overcome it.

 

Tony

[hobknob]

I can't believe this is still going...

 

Species Engineering provides you with Species engineering points to modify your lifeform. The higher the level the more points you get. You spend them just like your initial points are spent.

[BlendMeAnother]

Hmmm. I wish I had started this topic before I did my setup.

 

Could someone put some more words around the techs that affect lifeform characteristics, like Species Engineering? I am unclear about how these are applied. (E.g., does Species Engineering give a different kind of research point that needs to be explicitly applied to specific characteristics or is Species Engineering referenced here an umbrella for researching specific lifeform characterisitcs?) Also, someone mentioned some other exotic research like Corporate Tech that seems to have an effect.

 

So what is your empire name and number?

[Lord Deependra]

It seems pretty straight-forward to me. A Tyrannosaurus with power armour and a plasma rifle beats a mouse in power armour with a plasma rifle.

 

Only if T-Rex shoots first; if the mouse shoots first T-Rex, then is toast. That is pretty much my point. Tech is the great equalizer that nullifies the lifeform characteristics.

 

It takes a lot of mouse-sizesd plama rifles to kill one T-Rex. But the life-form differences aren't as dramatic as that. Basically, if you have two otherwise identical soldiers with identical equipment and one solder is a little bit stronger or a little bit faster, then he has an edge.

 

And remember, these aren't naturally evolved societies. These are the remnants of the former galactic empire. And if you think your ground technology is too weak for a star-faring race, spend saved SRPs and focus research in ground tech. You will probably have about a year before you meet anyoine else.

 

And finally, its just a game.

[Coconutheads]

H.S.

 

It's apparent that you still have issue with the way racial characteristics affect combat in SN. As we are just going back and forth here and nothing seems to be getting solved, I think you should contact Pete directly and voice your opinions to him. Perhaps he'll take your thoughts into account and modify SN:ROTE to reduce the influence physical characteristics play in ground combat.

 

I'm not sure if you've set up your first position or not yet, but if not I'd suggest picking a tiny race with poor constitution, reflexes and intelligence in anticipation of forthcoming changes to the SN:ROTE ground combat system. After all, why waste the points on racial improvements, it really doesn't make any sense. Save the SRP for tech advances.

 

Just my $0.02.

 

P.S. If you'd like some help, I'd be glad to take a look at your setup .pdf file to critique your choices. You can email it to me at the email address found in my profile. Good luck to you!!!

 

 

 

It seems pretty straight-forward to me. A Tyrannosaurus with power armour and a plasma rifle beats a mouse in power armour with a plasma rifle.

 

Only if T-Rex shoots first; if the mouse shoots first T-Rex, then is toast. That is pretty much my point. Tech is the great equalizer that nullifies the lifeform characteristics.

 

It takes a lot of mouse-sizesd plama rifles to kill one T-Rex. But the life-form differences aren't as dramatic as that. Basically, if you have two otherwise identical soldiers with identical equipment and one solder is a little bit stronger or a little bit faster, then he has an edge.

 

And remember, these aren't naturally evolved societies. These are the remnants of the former galactic empire. And if you think your ground technology is too weak for a star-faring race, spend saved SRPs and focus research in ground tech. You will probably have about a year before you meet anyoine else.

 

And finally, its just a game.

[Lord Xaar]

H.S.

 

P.S. If you'd like some help, I'd be glad to take a look at your setup .pdf file to critique your choices. You can email it to me at the email address found in my profile. Good luck to you!!!

 

 

 

Good luck to you indeed, if you go around sending random players your setup .pdf for "critique-ing"...

 

 

-LX

[D.I.E.]

Hmmm. I wish I had started this topic before I did my setup.

 

Could someone put some more words around the techs that affect lifeform characteristics, like Species Engineering? I am unclear about how these are applied. (E.g., does Species Engineering give a different kind of research point that needs to be explicitly applied to specific characteristics or is Species Engineering referenced here an umbrella for researching specific lifeform characterisitcs?) Also, someone mentioned some other exotic research like Corporate Tech that seems to have an effect.

 

 

Sure, H.S.

 

This is a single, specific, unique, research line. Not a complex related class of lines. Whenever you accomplish a breakthrough in the "Species Engineering" line, you will be given additional set-up points. These are just like the initial points you got in your set-up, with two major differences. You can only use them to improve (no getting extra points by "devolving") your current species definition. And you cannot convert these into additional research points. You implement them by sending a note to Pete, telling him what modifications you wish to buy. If you do not have enough points to purchase what you want, you can accumulate them for later use.

 

Research in Species Engineering is fairly difficult, because of the large number of prerequisistes required to qualify for each level. As you advance up this tree, it will require prerequisites in the Life Science, Medical Science, Genetic Engineering, and other related tech lines, just as you might expect.

 

Industrial tech advances are an entirely different path, although a few of the prerequisites do overlap.

 

Tony

[H. S. Lahman]

Research in Species Engineering is fairly difficult, because of the large number of prerequisistes required to qualify for each level. As you advance up this tree, it will require prerequisites in the Life Science, Medical Science, Genetic Engineering, and other related tech lines, just as you might expect.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

There is a tech tree in the download area for "basic" techs, which includes Species Engineering. I assume there are are other, advanced techs beyond L4 shown in that tree. Is the full tree written down somewhere?

 

More precisely, does it matter? By L4 the research time may be so long that all one cares about are the techs for one's immediate goals and it isn't worth strategically targeting anything multiple levels out.

[cestvel]

Research in Species Engineering is fairly difficult, because of the large number of prerequisistes required to qualify for each level. As you advance up this tree, it will require prerequisites in the Life Science, Medical Science, Genetic Engineering, and other related tech lines, just as you might expect.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

There is a tech tree in the download area for "basic" techs, which includes Species Engineering. I assume there are are other, advanced techs beyond L4 shown in that tree. Is the full tree written down somewhere?

 

More precisely, does it matter? By L4 the research time may be so long that all one cares about are the techs for one's immediate goals and it isn't worth strategically targeting anything multiple levels out.

 

You are kidding, right? Higher tech path information is one of the few secrets any alliance has. Some of what you got to know in this thread was not common knowledge one or two years ago iirc.

 

We won't rob you of the fun to try to figure out the pathes yourself

[D.I.E.]

Research in Species Engineering is fairly difficult, because of the large number of prerequisistes required to qualify for each level. As you advance up this tree, it will require prerequisites in the Life Science, Medical Science, Genetic Engineering, and other related tech lines, just as you might expect.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

There is a tech tree in the download area for "basic" techs, which includes Species Engineering. I assume there are are other, advanced techs beyond L4 shown in that tree. Is the full tree written down somewhere?

 

More precisely, does it matter? By L4 the research time may be so long that all one cares about are the techs for one's immediate goals and it isn't worth strategically targeting anything multiple levels out.

 

Species Engineering is known to progress up through 6th generation.

 

I certainly have never seen a full tech tree recorded. At least not in graphic form.

 

It may not matter. Certainly, no one empire can afford to research everything. Many decide not to give Species Engineering any priority. In any case, by the time you get to 4th generation, you may percieve enough of the pattern of prerequisites to make a good guess as to what you need next. Or, you will probably have befriended a neighbor or two, and one of them might be experienced enough to be able to give you more data.

 

But beyond the lower levels of research, most folks consider the structures of the various reseach trees to be military secrets. You will want to be cultivating some relationships. (For this, and many other reasons.)

 

Tony

[Gary Carpenter]

Research in Species Engineering is fairly difficult, because of the large number of prerequisistes required to qualify for each level. As you advance up this tree, it will require prerequisites in the Life Science, Medical Science, Genetic Engineering, and other related tech lines, just as you might expect.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

There is a tech tree in the download area for "basic" techs, which includes Species Engineering. I assume there are are other, advanced techs beyond L4 shown in that tree. Is the full tree written down somewhere?

 

More precisely, does it matter? By L4 the research time may be so long that all one cares about are the techs for one's immediate goals and it isn't worth strategically targeting anything multiple levels out.

 

You are kidding, right? Higher tech path information is one of the few secrets any alliance has. Some of what you got to know in this thread was not common knowledge one or two years ago iirc.

 

We won't rob you of the fun to try to figure out the pathes yourself

 

LOL, why not tell the newbies you just argued in an earlier thread that knowing the tech tree was NOT much of an advantage for your empire in the newbie area?