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Picking up player dropped positions


Lord SaHeru
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Pigskin et al-

 

I simply ask that you put your real name at the end of these posts so that I can have the privilege to know who I am dealing with. (thanks for the email Saheru)

Algae dude,

 

When looking at the old board, I noticed that you posted anoymously for over a year?... now you have a beef with it? Double standards there.

 

Plus, you've posted under alt. names here when making fun of others and claimed to have no problems with it. Remember, you thought Lord Valwyn imposetrs were funny when the fun was directed elsewhere....

 

Maybe I am in Game 71 :rolleyes: I do like tennis. Maybe not.

 

And the statement: "He was friends with other people in the game." maybe should have the following amended according to what others in Game 71 told me?

 

"He was friends with other people (who are friends or related to Poland) in the game." ... an ally of an ally... same thing dude.

 

Just being a TA with someone does not make them your ally. I thought Game71 showed that :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

Oh yah, the great obligateory SNROTE disclamer: Nothing personal dude.

 

-Pigskin

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Pigskin-

 

Ummmm

 

I shouldn't even dignify you with a response. Its clear you have a problem with me.

 

The only two people I went into 71 with were my two real life brothers. I'm not sure who you are talking to in game 71 and frankly I dont care. You're still wrong.

 

You can continue to twist reality to see me in the worst light and bring it to the public boards. I'm baffled as to what you are trying to accomplish and too exhausted with RL to figure it out. If I've somehow personally offended you, please PM me and I will be more than happy to try to resolve things.

 

I have nothing further to say to you, stranger. :rolleyes:

 

Brad

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  • 2 weeks later...

Part of this whole thread was to get thoughts from RTG on what game balance issues do they see if a player is allowed to be handed a second empire so they have two interconnected empires. Or maybe even take over a third so they have three interconnected empires.

 

I mean, how many connected empires would they be willing to let someone take over by agreement (as long as the person pays the turn fees of course, this is not a charitable institution)? Maybe each player would have just one empire as two connected either at set-up or by one player handing over an empire unbalances the game? Or maybe they think two is fine as it's close enough to being allies and the advantages that do exist are small and don't upset the game? Maybe Three? Four?

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The whole "connected empire" seems be mute as every empire is connected one way or another. As the game progresses you will be connected to lots and lots of empires. Just being connected itself is not the issued it is being close enough to be useful to each other that is the important thing. As technology increase that distance will get larger and larger to the point that most any several positions are "close" enough to be useful to each other. B)

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I've changed my position on this issue after giving myself time to absorb the reality of gaming a bit more. Plus Hobknob has a good point.

 

If it was illegal to make in-game transfers (reading the empire drop policy it appears to be a valid maneuver) -- what is to prevent one empire from simply doing the turn of another connected empire (emailing files) even through they don't 'own' it?

 

Another thought is this: what happens when six unaffiliated empires border each other and decide to form an alliance once in-game?

 

Same results - different process.

 

If you neighbor the behmoth, its best to find neighbors willing to work with you against the behemoth if it decides to expand in your direction.

 

Call it....a...'neighborhood watch' system. :D

 

If it can work for suburbia, it can work to protect neighboring peaceseeking empires, too. B)

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Part of this whole thread was to get thoughts from RTG on what game balance issues do they see if a player is allowed to be handed a second empire so they have two interconnected empires. Or maybe even take over a third so they have three interconnected empires.

Three isn't even a "maybe" anymore, and I'm not happy about it.

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First -- your right, someone being handed three connecting empires is not a maybe anymore. Sigh....

 

Second -- As to the whole neighbor concept you put out, I'm not certain that sounds right. Let me try my analogy.

 

First the set-up. I've been thinking that SN:ROTE in the early stages (first couple years??) could be thought of like the game Diplomacy from Avalon Hill. Movement from territory to territory is slow (one spot to the next) just like WP's between stars. The paths are preset. You border on a limited number of players, 3 or 4. Of course the Diplomacy map is a bit smaller at 7 spots. But again that is like SN in the early stages. You border some players. And through them you find out about or know of a few other nearby neighbors. Your entire SN Universe consists of your neighbors and other nearbys. Sure, there may be someone in the core (America) or even newere players (Asia). But their to far away to really matter for now. You have a little limited universe.

 

Second, a comparison. If you see the similarities from the above, perhaps this will make sense. A GM decides to run a Black 1898 Fog-o-War Variant (each person starts with one center, no ones names and addresses are given out, all initial contacts are through the GM, you can only contact players your forces intereact with except through newspaper postings where anything goes ... sound familiar?) and advertises for players. In this game of Diplomacy, John and Jim sent in requests to be in the game. They know each other and are hoping that by allying together from the start that they'll have an advantge over the other folks blindly trying to trade mails and connect. Lucky John and Jim get two spots (say Russia and Turkey) next to each. Looks like the other players are in for a rough time, at least until they figure out J&J's little game.

 

Wait a minute, after a few turns, once John and Jim run into each other to confirm the connection, John decides he no longer wants to play for whatever reason. He's going to have to drop. So John and Jim contact the GM. They ask if Jim can take over John's spot and run it since once they connected they allied. The GM decides it's better to have a spot run than dropped and allows this to happen. Now Jim starts to have some real fun. His Turkey runs into an Austrian unit. Austria sends messages but Jim ignores them all. Next his Russias runs into an Austrian Unit. This time, he contacts Austria and talks about the big, bad, silent Turkey to his south. He trades back and forth with Austria to get information as they plan for and position units over some turns to go after the evil Turks. Of course Jim never lets on he's playing both positions. And when the time comes to attack, the betrayal comes, and his forces roll over the surprised Austrian player

 

 

Sound contrived? Not in the least. In SN, since you can set the addressing to Private and RTG will not give out any information, this is just one of the advantages someone who is handed two empires can have in the game. One position can play up someone as a potential ally for information while the other plays deadly and silent (or even worse, sets up a second email account so you can trade mails and threats with the target, it's SO easy to do). And then when you're ready, *snick* goes the knife across the other players throat.

 

Now, add one more empire. Make it THREE connected spots. If someone is unlucky enough to find themselves connected to all three spots, or two of the three, and they are not lucky enough to find out about this .. then so long sucker.

 

At least when their were two players, John and Jim, the Austrian player could have tried to play up to the interests of one player over the other. Maybe one would have turned on the other. With multiple players, despite the advantage J&J had at the beginning, anything is still possible. But when both empires are controlled by one hand, all pretense at diplomacy and gaming are gone. That hope is no longer there. Not only is the game no longer balanced, the very nature of the game changes.

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At least when their were two players, John and Jim, the Austrian player could have tried to play up to the interests of one player over the other.  Maybe one would have turned on the other.  With multiple players, despite the advantage J&J had at the beginning, anything is still possible.  But when both empires are controlled by one hand, all pretense at diplomacy and gaming are gone.  That hope is no longer there.  Not only is the game no longer balanced, the very nature of the game changes.

The scenario you painted is clearly a valid one - I've seen a lot of interesting things of that nature over the years and Victory! tends to be a brutal game in that regard (although the knife usually comes much faster).

 

I don't agree with the conclusions with regard to balance and the nature of the game.

 

Balance is always a complicated issue and there are a lot of factors to take into account. In SN terms, you can give folks the same number of starting industry, the same rules to play under, etc. but once the game begins there are a lot of forces at work. Some players have more time on their hands, some are better players, some are better financed, some have a large circle of friends, some are loners and/or have difficulty making friends, etc.

 

It is common in PBM for folks to develop relationships, good and bad, and these relationships often last for a long time. Some guys have been gaming together for years.

 

If J & J have met in the game and their relationship is relatively new, then yes anything is possible and you may well be able to break up that relationship, make a deal, bribe somebody, etc. If J & J are close friends and have been gaming together for years however then those possibilities are an illusion. They will operate in concert as they work to destroy you, either overtly or with covert methods mixed in and nothing you say or do will ever change that. The results will be same as they would be if one person were controlling both positions.

 

Long lasting friendships (and vendettas) are common in PBM. Reputations are built (both good and bad) and conflict/cooperation is often pre-ordained. Diplomacy can sway the undecided but some folks will always work together and some folks will always be targeted (either due to reputation or just because they are not part of a certain group).

 

Russ

 

Edit : Typo

Edited by RTGRuss
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Well and valid, but this does appear to be becoming quite a real issue.....

 

It's obviously gone too far to change and multiple interconnected-empire playing is now a reality. However, in WKE's post above is a genuine possible solution.

 

I'll be honest and say that I picked the PRIV option from the start for two reasons only:

 

1) Being a Brit' I'd heard all sorts of nasty things about being picked on by all those US players who'd gang up against you once they found out......(actually I couldn't have found a nicer bunch out there, but I wasn't to know that).

 

2) Secondly I fancied a little bit of roleplay and wanted to play the diplomacy bit. This is also why I won't be using the MESS order as you cannot choose the e-mail addy to use.

 

But I'd give all that up to maintain game balance issues and I think it would be right to do so. It would be great to be able to have my cake and eat it, but life ain't like that.

 

Interstellar empires should not really be able to plan and co-ordinate without masses of effort, but we're real people with telephones and e-mail.

 

I'd like to suggest that the PRIV system be removed. Any empire should be able to find out if their neighbours are all living in the same town, or are indeed the same person. It's the only thing I can think of that would mitigate a situation that is already out of control and has obviously been abused, however Pete & Russ have tried to review it. I still hope that there are several hundred empires still playing - if so, then there's no way RTG can moderate it to that extent.......

 

IMO

 

Mark

 

aka Ur-Lord Tedric and and his merry bunch

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I vote to keep the privacy option. :thumbsup: I think some empires want the privacy option off because they can't gather information the hard way. You have to use either diplomacy or weapons. :drunk: Big deal if a few people band together or if an empire has two empires next to me. He's spending twice the amount of money. Let him try. Maybe you think I would quit if I found myself surrounded by some group planning to take my homeworld. We'll after the smoke clears we will see who survives. It takes a great deal of effort to coordinate movements and attacks. If their troops landed on my homeworld my troops would eat most armies for breakfast. :oops: This is the ultimate game of Victory in space. Not for the weak or squeamish. :cheers: Will people be calling foul when the first empire falls because some alliance gangs up on them. Baah.

 

The Witch King Star Seeker :jawdrop:

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