Ur Lord Tedric Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 X Y Z for the warp point number will not work, becasue, that would mean every warp point going into a system would have the same number and that is not the case No! I wasn't talking about x,y,z for WPs, but for systems...... I'm a bit sad that the Oracle seems to think that the mapping shouldn't be easier, but I guess he has a reason??? Given that the WP map is assumed to have little, or no, relevance to the spatial separation, it would just be real nice to have the logical game information to be able to do that 3-D map. There would still be the requirement for a topological WP map that I'm sure we all have in one format or another already...... And as regards the 0,0,0 thing, this was done in the last version of SN II I played.... If there was a Galactic Survey (GS) order that listed all the systems you had currently SS'd, then the code to calculate the reference to your Home System is a fairly trite calculation and fairly easy to code. As I said before, this is a nice to have, but it's a very nice, nice to have! Chief Cartographer to Ur-Lord Tedric (having woken up!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 The Subjective Fixation of the Objective: Towards a True Galactic Phenomenology of the Real Ok, it looks to me like the 3-D map of the galaxy is pre-determined in that the warp point connections are already programed. Thus, there is a latice work of networked "systems." Like every thing else in the game each system is designated by an underlying number. While the warp network itself exists independently of player activity, they are connected at these Systems designated only by number. When a player executes a Survey order the number at the other end of the WP is tickled so to speak. It kicks off a random name generation program. Thus we get a system name assigned to that original underlying system number. Only then does that system "come into existence." If one warps into that system and then does a System Scan, the actual contents of that system will be generated randomly. In other words, the star type, the planets, their in-system spacing, radiation belts, etc. are all then generated. They do not exist prior to the SS order. That is why when we get set ups our system info is not just given to us, it is presented as the result of a SS order on the report. I believe this may also be how planets are generated as well. Thus only the warp network is pre-determined, but everything else is only generated, i.e. fixed in the game universe, after someone, either a player, or the GM, executes the necessary order to start up the Sytem, Planet, or Primative Neutral generation program. If the warp connections were generated only with the addition of a new player, then there would be the possibility of falling off the universe one day because no one has signed up to play in a while, but then going back through the same WP and finding vast new space at the end after more folks have joined. Just a thought, Shane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Shane you have put to words what most likely happens in regards to the WPs and Systems. Remember too that players get added on in a ever increasing spirial arm that enwraps the previous inner arm and so on. Those newer players will always start on the leading edge farthest out from the core and might actually someday actually connect up to a player that joined some 6-9-12 months earlier in the next inner arm/wrap of the universe. Also as the years pass, and more and more newer players join this game the likelyhood of ever linking up to those brand new players is a ever smaller chance. Now this does not take into acount for some super tech that we do not have knowledge of yet, but your neighbors (that remain and don't drop) are most likely all you'll ever have to interact with....for a very very long time. Just some thoughts to think about! Penn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted May 27, 2004 Report Share Posted May 27, 2004 Penn That is my point, though. If the network of warp points is pre-existing the systems themselves, then you do not necessarily have such problems. Pete and Russ will "add" a new guy not right after the last new guy, but some distance beyond the "existing" space that has already been generated by GM and player SURV and SS orders. Maybe? It would solve the problem of logical inconistencies like I described above. Also, it would still leave open the possibility that some warp points in the pre-existing latice or network connect parts of the galaxy that are really far appart in terms of 3-D spacing and time of joining the game since if they lie behind Gs or Hs. These may not be explored for a very long time. If they do get generated by player action, then a new guy would just be set up somewhere else on the map, no biggie. I am thinking the 3-D map is quite large, but the really long WPs that connect vast distences are very rare. These probably play a part in the game's story arch somehow. My guess is the remnants of the T'ckon Empire are already tied to the pre-existing network so that we all get a long time to play and then wham, the ancients come back or something;-) Maybe the robot guys get re-activated, but it seems consistent with what I know of the game and the story-line. Shane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SargonKingOfSlith Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Good point Gill Bates, the warp class is different at each end of the tunnel. Ruins that line of thought. Here's the next observation: Class Min Dist Max Dist Min Size Max Size A 2113 2580 48 53 B 1157 1953 36 46 C 25 1562 4 38 D 0.1 999 12 28 E 0.1 542 4 24 F 0.1 81 1 18 G 0.3 74 (no successful surveys) Maybe there is some function that involves both ends of the warp tunnel? I'll have to look at that some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octagon999 Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 If you knew the exact xyz coordinates, then you are almost back to SNII, map-wise. I actually like the not knowing exactly. Keep everything relative to what is known. Maybe after the game is "over" it would be fun to get the scoop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Well for my money, I hope the game keeps running for years. Plus when the game is "over", who's gonna remember or even care then!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sssarass Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 SssargonKingOfSsslith, we have updated you information with what we have ssseen ssso far. CTO, Sssarasss Changesss Dissst Sssize Min Max Min Max 2106.6 2596.2 x x 1149.8 2049.7 x x 35.9 1571.1 1 39 x 1038.4 3 32 x x 1 25 x x x x 0.1 x 1 9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted May 28, 2004 Report Share Posted May 28, 2004 Changesss Dissst Sssize Min Max Min Max 2106.6 2596.2 x x 1149.8 2049.7 x x 35.9 1571.1 1 39 x 1038.4 3 32 x x 1 25 x x x x 0.1 x 1 9 Looks like the Translator screwed up again. Can't make heads or tails of this info, but here's my two cent worth of info in this regard. Warp Class and AU information I have determined the following: Class A warp will exit you 2100+ AU's away from the star(s) systems center Class B warp will exit you 2100 - 1100 AU's away from the star(s) systems center Class C warp will exit you 1600 - 9 AU's away from the star(s) systems center Class D warp will exit you 1100 - 0.1 AU's away from the star(s) systems center Class E warp will exit you 600 - 0.1 AU's away from the star(s) systems center Class F warp will exit you 60 - 0.1 AU's away from the star(s) systems center Class G warp ?? Class H warp ?? ?? = haven't gone through any of these yet. Hazardous Star Systems I believe it is safe to say that ships entering a Class A or B warp will exit safely away from any hazardous zone within the system. Class C warp has a slight chance of ending up within the hazardous zone depending on the type of hazard the system has (such as Gravity Well). Class D warp and above all have a greater chance of ending up in a hazardous area within the star system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Bunny Feet Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 "Printing the real xyz coordinates would certainly make it easy to map things out...a bit too easy. If you need them to use some mapping utility that you might have, just make up your own xyz's and plug them in. You could then fiddle and tinker with those coordinates to get the map looking the way you like." -------------------- Pete Dorman Rolling Thunder Games, Inc. supernova@rollingthunder.com How about this... On the turn sheet place each player's home system at coordinates 0,0,0 and give the relative coordinates of explored systems for that empire. - No one's location is revealed relative to another player. - We can make 3D maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 "Printing the real xyz coordinates would certainly make it easy to map things out...a bit too easy. If you need them to use some mapping utility that you might have, just make up your own xyz's and plug them in. You could then fiddle and tinker with those coordinates to get the map looking the way you like."-------------------- Pete Dorman Rolling Thunder Games, Inc. supernova@rollingthunder.com How about this... On the turn sheet place each player's home system at coordinates 0,0,0 and give the relative coordinates of explored systems for that empire. - No one's location is revealed relative to another player. - We can make 3D maps. Any set of coordinates would allow for easy mapping and guessing of the map. Say you run into another player at 100, 47, 86. He says the star to him appears as -67, 23, 12. Well then, if both HW's are 0, 0, 0 .. then all the stars in his map can be adjusted to yours by simply adding 167, 24, 74 to any coordinate (or adding -167, -24, -74 to yours to adjust to his). Get enough together doing that and you'll be able to start guessing the like direction to other players, where there are unexplored pockets in the universe, etcetera.... The same would be true for ANY coordinate system. Lets say everyone's HW is give a random coordinate. As long as other stars are represented relative to that number .. the moment two races meet at a star they can determine the difference between their mapping functions and know how to adjust and merge their maps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted May 29, 2004 Report Share Posted May 29, 2004 Sure, relative 0,0,0 coordinates would be easy to give out. But....that would eliminate the entire concept of spaghetti maps made by each player. Isn't it more fun to figure out your connections, and likely other connections, when you meet another player? If you exchanged your relative coordinates, you'd both know instantly which stars were close, and would have a very good idea which other stars might connect. Sounds too easy to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Carpenter Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 I absolutely forbid Empires from saying their HW is 0,0,0. I after all am the center of the universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted May 30, 2004 Report Share Posted May 30, 2004 Sure, relative 0,0,0 coordinates would be easy to give out. But....that would eliminate the entire concept of spaghetti maps made by each player. Isn't it more fun to figure out your connections, and likely other connections, when you meet another player? If you exchanged your relative coordinates, you'd both know instantly which stars were close, and would have a very good idea which other stars might connect. Sounds too easy to me Ah well, I can't say I mind that as the reason, it's just the reality bit that's sad. Just like in those lovely books, they're still set in the 'real' universe and we would know from a knowledge of Stellar Cartography where the WP had actually taken us........ I certainly won't die in a ditch over it, but it would still be a very nice, nice to have..... And indeed, if Star Systems are actually close together, perhaps there might then be a method of moving between those systems in h-space rather than the WPs????? Now that might be a way to arrive out of the blue, although it might take substantially longer..... And thinking of the books again - perhaps there are a whole lot of other systems that aren't even connected by WPs.......... Dreaming..... Chief Existentialist to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted May 31, 2004 Author Report Share Posted May 31, 2004 Good work Sargon - I didnt think of that. I'm using those distance figures for my 3-D map and its cleaning up some loose corners. PM me if anyone is interested in the program I'm using (its $30.00) Gary - the other day I actually put a system called "Gary" at 0,0,0 :lol: (I left the middle open) Who knows? You might very well be there Ken - yeah any coordinates would make it SUPER easy to map (but man oh man would that be COOL - the game would pick up FAST!) and maybe Pete is right - TOO easy. Maybe that deserves a poll? (Hey we can at least practice a democracy knowing in advance that such a poll would not affect the rules ) Happy Memorial Day everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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