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:D Hmmmmm granted I am not a member of the GS, but it does seem that one system that you might like/think/hope is neutral to the player posting/listing it ...might just be claimed by another player's empire. Just because they do not speak up and post to your list, doesn't mean you have the right to define it as anything. I would say that your list of neutral systems is silly at best...but that is only my thoughts on the matter.

 

Tyean Corrella

First Citizen of the T'Aleen Empire

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T'Aleen Empire Posted on Jul 16 2004, 04:55 AM

Hmmmmm granted I am not a member of the GS, but it does seem that one system that you might like/think/hope is neutral to the player posting/listing it ...might just be claimed by another player's empire.  Just because they do not speak up and post to your list, doesn't mean you have the right to define it as anything. I would say that your list of neutral systems is silly at best...but that is only my thoughts on the matter.

 

The bill makes it voluntary for Senators to contribute to the list. As we understand the bill, the list itself would only define how those Senators who contribute view the submitted systems...as neutral. The bill reinforces the notion that instellar commerce and diplomacy will better serve empires, rather than aggression. It is not a list that claims territory and causes division. While we do not think this bill is the long lost solution to divisiveness, it does have merit toward the goal of sharing systems rather than simply claiming them.

 

The T'Aleen emissary to the Senate argues that a Senator does not "have the right" to declare a system neutral, yet he reserves such a "right" for other empires to declare a system as their own. This smacks of contradiction in our eyes. Why do these empires not have an equal right to declare a system?

 

If this is not the emissary's intended point, perhaps you could explain why it is more "silly" for a notional system to be considered "neutral" (open to commerce and travel) by one empire and "claimed" by another, rather than both empires "claiming" the system? (Is this not just as "silly"?) Especially when the empire classifying the system as "neutral" is advertising to others that they welcome trade in that area.

 

In the end, after the T'Aleen emissary has made it clear to us that there is no harm in forwarding the cause of trade, we vote Yea for GS BILL 070904-3-02.

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Total drivel!

 

If you bunch of crackpots want to go around claiming systems as neutral then go right ahead.But if you claim one of my systems for your own peace-loving camp sing-songs, I'll blast you out of the sky. :D

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:D Dear Senator Justinian,

 

 

My point was that just because one member of your groups desides to state that a system as they see it is 'neutral', another empire might just claim it and just because they either can not or choose not to state their claim publically doesn't change anything.

 

EXAMPLE: A Senator is out 4-5 systems from his HW system and 'declares' the systems that are 3, 4, and 5 out from his HW as being 'neutral'. Now unknown to him the 6th and 7th systems are actually (6th being one out from another players HW and the 7th being the other players HW.) owned or declared by the other yet unknown player. Plus maybe this unknown player feels that system '5th' ( that is 5 out from the Senator players HW) which is actually 2nd system out from the unknown player to the Senator player to belonging to him.

Now maybe that other player is not a member of this board, not all players are. OR maybe he chooses not to read the board, or whatever...it matters not. The fact that the member Senator has 'declared that 5th system as a neutral means that in the eyes of the rest of the Senate...will remain neutral.

 

Now I do not mean to attack your effort, but one should keep their eyes open to the possibility that a system you may think is neutral might not actually be neutral. Speaking for myself, I am basically peaceful but I view any system at least two out from my HW to belong to me. All are welcome to enter, but one better ASK first before setting up shop. Kinda like someone walking through my backyard is ok, but if someone were to set up a tent in my backyard with plans on building a home...then that is different. Tell me you wouldn't feel the SAME WAY!!!

 

:cheers::cheers::thumbsup:

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T'Aleen Empire Posted on Jul 16 2004, 07:54 AM

My point was that just because one member of your groups desides to state that a system as they see it is 'neutral', another empire might just claim it and just because they either can not or choose not to state their claim publically doesn't change anything.

We believe you misunderstand us. Point was taken and not refuted. We do not doubt that empires have discovered the same systems, nor do we discount that systems on the neutral list (if bill passes) could be considered "sovereign" by others. However, our point is that the bill is a step in the correct direction. How can it possible be worse than having all empires claiming every system, as is current reality. And we further realize that just because an empire does not post their "claims" that those claims are invalidated. This is simple reality.

 

Please note that no where do we state the Senate list is infallible nor the supreme listing of system status--this is not the purpose of the bill. Perhaps the bill's sponsor could elaborate if we misunderstand the bill. It is just a potential list of systems given voluntarily by Senators of systems they wish to share as being neutral TO THEM for purposes of trade.

 

We believe most Senators are Senators because they want to avoid the unnecessary scrapes with the unknown neighbor. We believe this is the intended use of this bill. I invite the T'Aleen emissary to join the Senate and make his vote count.

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Turok Posted on Jul 16 2004, 07:27 AM

If you bunch of crackpots want to go around claiming systems as neutral then go right ahead.But if you claim one of my systems for your own peace-loving camp sing-songs, I'll blast you out of the sky.

Good thing you cleared that up for us! Your previous multitude of posts concerning interstellar relations left your position unclear. :D

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As in all things it is a question of perspective and enforcement.

 

If all of the members of the Galactic Senate deem that a particular system is Neutral then, for them, the system is neutral. If a non-member 'claims' the system, it means nothing, unless they back the claim by force of arms, which will incur the wrath of the Galactic Senate should that Empire fire upon a Galactic Senate member.

 

FWIW...

 

-SK :D

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:thumbsup:

 

We'd like to throw an issue into the pot for consideration by the Senate that has vexed us for many months...........

 

There seems to be a potential for a lot of confusion over the concept of 'system'.

 

Now this word can be taken to mean the planets and moons of a system. Now these are 'real' and can be claimed and occupied and exploited....

 

But the 'system' is also the construct of a meeting of the Warp lines. It is just an accident of confluence that systems are the waypoints on the route from here to there......

 

Are the senate advocating that it is right, fair and proper to deny empires the ability to travel from here to there in peace......??????

 

Just curious..... :D

 

Chief Existentialist to Ur-Lord Tedric

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ShadowKitsune Posted on Jul 16 2004, 08:24 AM

As in all things it is a question of perspective and enforcement.

 

If all of the members of the Galactic Senate deem that a particular system is Neutral then, for them, the system is neutral. If a non-member 'claims' the system, it means nothing, unless they back the claim by force of arms, which will incur the wrath of the Galactic Senate should that Empire fire upon a Galactic Senate member.

Of course. But you are jumping to conclusions that have no base. If this is about the latest bill, there is no provision for the "list" as being ordained by the Senate...it's just a list where Senators can provide system names. Nothing says the entire Senate or even one more Senator will back a member's listing of a system as neutral...it is on a by-empire basis, not a GS basis.

 

It is easy to nay-say EVERY positive action by pointing out the situation whereby it will not work. But the result is inaction, and thus the nay-say process is considered pointless in our culture, for nothing gets done and no progress is made. We consider it much more honorable to actually work toward a goal, rather than mire ourselves in inaction because a solution is not perfect.

 

Wrath of the Senate?...where is the basis for this accusation? And the Senate is hardly a body so large as to cause concern...and yet so much interest.

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:D Thank you Justinion for your reply and to further clarify the comment made by Shadowkitsune. I will give some consideration to actually joining the GS. What at this point would I need to do, if I choose to join?

 

Tyean Corrella

First Citizen of the T'Aleen Empire

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Thank you Justinion for your reply and to further clarify the comment made by Shadowkitsune. I will give some consideration to actually joining the GS. What at this point would I need to do, if I choose to join?

 

If you are interested, there is a thread pinned at the top on forming the Galactic Senate which explains how to join. Part of joining is a statement (see below) you can post to any GS thread such as this one stating your desire to join. Plus you will need to list your empire number on any posts pertaining to joining and voting so that your votes can be tracked.

 

And thanks to Justinian for making the point clear that the GS has little power to enforce anything at this time. Once our empires make contact then that situation will change. (And yes I back the decisions of the Senate no matter what my vote is. I just wont waste hot air :ranting: on making impotent threats.)

 

Here is the statement you need to post in order to be considered a member.

 

“I hereby wish to enjoy the protections and benefits of the Galactic Senate and promise to honor the Bylaws ratified by the Galactic Senate. I remain a sovereign empire, but will honor any duties imposed upon me by the Senate for as long as I choose to remain a member. I also promise to inspire non-members to the high ideals for which the Galactic Senate stands.”
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:drunk:

 

We'd like to throw an issue into the pot for consideration by the Senate that has vexed us for many months...........

 

There seems to be a potential for a lot of confusion over the concept of 'system'.

 

Now this word can be taken to mean the planets and moons of a system. Now these are 'real' and can be claimed and occupied and exploited....

 

But the 'system' is also the construct of a meeting of the Warp lines. It is just an accident of confluence that systems are the waypoints on the route from here to there......

 

Are the senate advocating that it is right, fair and proper to deny empires the ability to travel from here to there in peace......??????

 

Just curious..... :ranting:

 

Chief Existentialist to Ur-Lord Tedric

Good Ur-Lord Tedric

 

If I am not mistaken, the previous law on this subject, GS 2-03, differentiated between celectial bodies and systems. In fact, outside of the three system exclusive sovereignty area, there is a explicitely a mechanism for recognizing a member or non-member's sovereign claims to systems as well as merely planets. The scope of the claim, as we interpret the law, is to be decided by the GS at the time of application.

 

Senator Logion 4579

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