DrFreud Posted July 6, 2004 Report Share Posted July 6, 2004 Russ, I've noticed that experienced players seem to have access to many of the country setup files giving them an even bigger lead compared to novices. Can you make all the country setups available for download? That evens that part of the odds again. Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hersir Posted July 7, 2004 Report Share Posted July 7, 2004 Trading is more fun. Experienced players?? A little more then a year ago I started playing Victory! with ZERO setups (ok 1 if you count the nation I played), I now have the setups of about half the nations. Wanna trade setups? Hersir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd_ernst Posted July 8, 2004 Report Share Posted July 8, 2004 Dr Freud, According to your postings you're an experienced player. So you must have a lot of setups... Wouldn't you agree with me that having a solid TA is more worth than all the setup's you could get your hands on? And; Isn't diplomacy an integral part of this game? Negotiating, bartering, hell, threatening! It's all part of the game. If you take that away, you take away half the fun! And wasn't it a wise man that once said:"A gun is the greatest equalizer of them all..." So if you feel that you're treated unfair: build a bigger gun! Donald P.S. Having the setup of your enemy's country doesn't mean that you're going to win a battle... I had the setup of Egypt in vic 72, and he still beat the hell out of me (leaving Trans-Jordan in disarray gave me a small bit of satisfaction. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicO Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Freud has a point. Let's be honest. You can guess where the really big cities are located. In real life it's no secret where your arms factories are located. Before I started playing Norway I allready knew the important cities would be Oslo, Trondheim and Narvik. I vote for making the setups (or some of the info) public. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd_ernst Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Your argument contradicts itself, in a way... Let's be honest. You can guess where the really big cities are located. In real life it's no secret where your arms factories are located. Before I started playing Norway I allready knew the important cities would be Oslo, Trondheim and Narvik. If you can already make an educated guess about the major cities, why do you need the setups? If it would come to a vote, my vote would be: "nay". It's more fun to aquire the info through diplomacy than it would be if it's justed handed out to you. Donald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitsune Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 From what I understand, once upon a time you only received Tech Packets as the Technology became available to you. If you had German Tech and wanted to know what the British Tech was you either had to trade for it or play a British Tech nation in another game of Victory! You can now download ALL of the Tech Packages, all four types, from the beginning to the end. I don't see how making all of the Start-Ups available is any different. M2CW, -SK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd_ernst Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 The difference is that it wouldn't change your building habits a bit knowing what technology came available for your opponents; you would build the best technology available for yourself at that moment. With setups you can make a complete strategic planning because you know all the weak and strong points of a country, industrial and population wise. And that makes a big differnce. Cities that we know now to be big, or we think to now are big can in fact be small in Victory and vice versa. Without a setup you would have to guess or spy or negotiate or try something else to get the information you want. Not having setups comes closer to the real fight than having all the information from the beginning. And if you have the setups why stop there? Why not ask the source code? If you have the source code, you could see what your turnresults would be before you send them away, altering the things you didn't like. This might look stupid but in my eyes it would be the same (well almost..). This too would take away much of the game-depth. But I guess this is one of those trench-discussions; you're either for giving all the setups or against it. There seems to be no middle way. Donald. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurassier Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 For Victory II (or whatever the upgrade is called) I would suggest randomness of setups. So that one time Berlin starts with a pop of 70 and 4 ARM factories, and the next time it has 22 pop and 2 Air factories, etc. Also, randomize the resources so the PET province this turn has nothing or LGT next, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 I would settle for a subset of information, that is contained in the .vic result files (which, for turn 0, are the setup files). I would like to have the terrain info, weather band info, the coastal status, port status and home country name available in electronic form. Possibly even the resource distribution for the provinces. Basically, every information that is currently visible on the maps. My preferred format for such info would be a trimmed .vic file with all the usual sections in it, but only the sections for provinces and cities actually contain the info, with all data not listed above (like pop size, factory distribution, local defenses, AIC uplink, etc) reset to zero or blanks. All other sections should only have their headers, nothing else. This would enable me to parse it electronically with the same program I currently use to parse regular .vic files. Jan Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitsune Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 The difference is that it wouldn't change your building habits a bit knowing what technology came available for your opponents; you would build the best technology available for yourself at that moment. With setups you can make a complete strategic planning because you know all the weak and strong points of a country, industrial and population wise. And that makes a big differnce. Cities that we know now to be big, or we think to now are big can in fact be small in Victory and vice versa. Without a setup you would have to guess or spy or negotiate or try something else to get the information you want. Not having setups comes closer to the real fight than having all the information from the beginning. And if you have the setups why stop there? Why not ask the source code? If you have the source code, you could see what your turnresults would be before you send them away, altering the things you didn't like. This might look stupid but in my eyes it would be the same (well almost..). This too would take away much of the game-depth. But I guess this is one of those trench-discussions; you're either for giving all the setups or against it. There seems to be no middle way. Donald. I would agree with you if there weren't players out there who already have nearly all, if not all, of the set-ups already. -SK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 This is an interesting proposal. However, don't most of us tweak our AICs anyway? Well - I guess having the setup would still be invaluable. I've traded a few and see the benefits. In the alternative, why don't we have people volunteer their set-ups through the board somehow? Make a huge zip file? I'd be up for that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd_ernst Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 Shadow Kitsune, I would agree with you if there weren't players out there who already have nearly all, if not all, of the set-ups already. And how do you think they got those setups? It's a bit shallow to look just at the present, this game has been going on for years and hopefully will continue to do so. Should we spoil the fun for others just because we have all the setups? Look, I know that it might look to the newbies as unfair that those that have played more games have the advantages of more setups. But they have to keep in mind that the more experienced players did not get those setups easily; they all had to trade them for other things. Time and money for instance.. So if you turn the newbee's argument around you could say that it would be unfair to the more experienced players to give those setups away for free. Since they had to barter for them and give things away to get them. And maybe it is true that a person that has all the setups is not likely to trade them for something else, just keep in mind that there are more players in a game than just that one! And there are more games of Victory! played at the same time. Why stick to the players you're playing with/against? Why not trade your setup with someone in another active game..? Maybe you have to ally to a country that can give you no immediate advantages to you strategy, just to get the setup you want! And if, after all my arguments, you still think it is unfair that some have more setups that others maybe we could convince Russ to setup a game where only newbees are allowed; Using ignorance as the great equalizer so to speak.. Be creative! Start talking! Donald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrFreud Posted August 1, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2004 Dr Freud, According to your postings you're an experienced player. So you must have a lot of setups... CD-Ernst, I played in Vic1 some 15 years ago, maybe I even participated in 2. Not sure anymore. Anyway, I like fair gaming. I would also prefer random setups, that keeps the trading part and the 'fog of war'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicO Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Anyway, I like fair gaming. I would also prefer random setups, that keeps the trading part and the 'fog of war'. What about keeping the pop in the same place (We wouldn't want a few hillbilly cities to be 99 pop) and spreading the factories? What about a setup with zero factories and enough CP's to build your own? That way you could 'shape' your country just the way you want it and keep the 'fog of war'. Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cd_ernst Posted August 12, 2004 Report Share Posted August 12, 2004 Dr. Freud, By random setups you mean, not knowing what country you're going to play? Or do you mean what Chico said? Beginning with zero factories but the equivalent of the CP's sounds nice. But, that means that war will not be starting in turn 3 but a few turns later. That's okay with me. What about, just like RISK, give each city a standard number of pop and allow the player to divide the remainder of the pop in any way he/she chooses? That would really render all old setups useless. You would need more orders than 60 off course this very first turn but that should not be a problem. Russ could allow for 120 orders the very first turn and all turns after the first one the normal 60. Donald Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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