Senatorial Postion

[Turok]

Ouch Justinian! Did I hit a nerve?

 

My problem with the Senate stems from the fact that it is based on lies and mis-information. You debate anti-piracy laws and announce how you will aid other senators who become targets of pirates and warmongers. What drivel!

How does that work then? I am aware you have had the occasional run in with the Eyre. Who is coming to your aid? How can anyone possibly help you? Do you Senators exchange HW addresses? I doubt it.

 

The fact of the matter is you discuss topics to make it look as if the Senate is playing an active role. In fact most of what has been debated so far is meaningless twaddle that has no bearing on the game whatsoever.

 

That, Senators is why I will not be joining your cozy group. However before anyone has a go at me (Eternus)I do respect your right to play this game however you like. The Senate is just not for me

[Justinian]

No nerve was hit, my dear Turok. I said I was "amused". I've yet to hear a decent answer as to why the organization you deride so, seems to have captivated your attention.

 

You will note, as well, that the Senate debates with its eyes open. While we have all expressed hope to aid each other if possible, we realize that it will be some time before that is possible. When you are unable to stay away from "lies and mis-information" do you actually read what Senators say?

 

The Senate is not discussing topics to look important to the likes of you. It is our organization because we thought it might be fun and have some value. But I should not talk for other Senators. It is why I joined. This opinion is mine.

 

If you, as you just said, respect our right to play the game how we want, then stop trying to be a legend in your own mind and let us.

 

Turok Posted on Jul 28 2004, 11:45 PM

The Senate is just not for me

As if that wasn't abundantly clear to all.

[Turok]

" legend in your own mind " - Nice touch Justi old pal.

 

I merely represent the darkness that opposes everything the Senate stands for. I suppose we could all live happily as members of the Senate but don't you feel that would make the game a little tedious?

 

If the Senate has captivated my attention it has done so because it represents everything that I oppose.

 

Whilst I defend the right of all to play however they like, should I not be allowed to express my views? You discuss anti-piracy laws, should I not be allowed to reflect on them too - even if I think they are ridiculous? Perhaps you good senators only want to hear the good things.

 

I wish you well for the future but bearing in mind your closeness to the Eyre I suspect your days are numbered

[Turok]

Justinian I did respond to your message but am not sure it went through. You (or anybody else) can contact me at stuartchandler@compuserve.com

[EternusIV]

First off, I think that Senators Justinian and Hannibal have nicely articulated my own position regarding the Senate.

 

When I drafted the Charter and handed it to my friend to read, he told me flat out: "you're crazy and it will never work"

 

Well - maybe he was right :lol: But thanks to a lot of good people the GS is here to stay

 

I must say that it has been a nice surprise to meet people I otherwise would not have - and I enjoy the commentary both good and bad in regards to the Senate.

 

Lets not forget that we are playing a game here Hell, even I need that reminder.

 

The Senate - like any government - is exactly what we make of it. There are some who wish to see a more centralized form of control over affairs - there are others who want to keep the Senate loose - there are others who want to consolidate and simplify the politics within the politics - there are those who might subvert and there are those who are just happy to roleplay and have fun.

 

I just don't see how anyone (well, Turok especially) can characterize the Senate as an organization based upon "lies and misinformation"

 

I'm also amazed at the degree of impatience and demand non-Senators have towards our experimental process....what the heck are you guys expecting? Remember that we are 22 people who decided to add a little spice and roleplaying to the game and that the art of compromise between 22 people is a little more complicated than it might appear.

 

We are definitely not of "one mind" nor a "political" behemoth, but I sincerely think some people are flat out paranoid and a little intimidated by the GS. I am baffled as to why. The Senate is open to all and one can drop out at anytime without consequence. If one bylaw doesn't work - well - then we pass another one that will.

 

During this process - why go Michael Moore on us?

 

In other words- if you non-members sincerely give a crap about the Senate and for who we stand - then why not join it?

 

Ah - but we all know that answer.

 

I'm guessing some of the non-members are complete deconstructionists. You'd rather throw tomatoes at a show you snuck into see, than contribute anything substantial.

 

Other non-members are simply riding the angst of those who don't know us - others are members of one organization or another trying to discredit the Senate for 'political' reasons.

 

<---- To the critics.

 

For the sake of us all - lets make certain the line one draws between the GS and yourself is one that does not subvert our purpose in playing SNROTE in the first place (Read: F-U-N)

 

Who am I kidding - you guys are having a blast stirring things up :lol: And I'm pretty certain that 99% of the GS can see right through it.

[Turok]

Eternus

 

I think you speak a lot of sense - pretty long-winded, but nevertheless sensible stuff. You know my views on the game, and everything I say should be taken at face value, always remembering we are role-playing.

 

The last thing I want to do is cause bad feeling amongst fellow gamers. In view of this I will in future refrain from my attacks (verbal) on the Senate and let you get on with your discussions.

 

But I will be watching!

 

Regards to you all

 

Turok

[Sha'thar of the Gosht Kohr]

Sha'thar mulls something.

 

"Earlier. we discussed and passed a bill which limited, as I understand it, an empire's influence to systems three jumps away from their homeworld.

 

While this is a large expanse, the Gosht Kohr are finding few habitable worlds within this sphere of influence. On the other hand, we've found an 'ideal' world about eight jumps out, with no sign of habitation, colonial or native.

 

Frankly, we intend on colonizing it. Before that happens though, We would like to discuss an amendment to existing senatorial bills and suggest that emperial boundries become fixed -after- an empire meets a senatorial member.

 

Your thoughts, fellow senators?"

[Kurassier]

Earlier. we discussed and passed a bill which limited, as I understand it, an empire's influence to systems three jumps away from their homeworld.

 

As I've said before, I don't have a problem with the 3 jumps from the HW, but I also consider Sabeli sovereign space ANY system that has a Sabeli colony (not just a colony beacon, an actual colony) as well as all systems adjacent to a colony AND all systems between a colony and my HW.

This opinion will not change anytime soon, unless someone can convince me otherwise.

 

ALL of my explorer ships are set to shoot only if fired upon, while my warships are set to shoot at anyone without which I have an agreement. My warships do not stray from the Sabeli sovereign space unless and until I am at war. With the number of ships I have, currently over 150 exploration/picket ships (you'll have to guess at how many warships) it is very unlikely that you'll will run into Sabeli sovereign space without encountering one of my ships first. Just send me an email at tpalcorn@yahooo.com or a PM here and we'll talk. If you don't contact me or respond to my attempts to contact, I will assume hostile intentions and move my warships to the appropriate locations to defend my sovereign territory.

 

Anybody may disagree with philosophy, but I suggest you talk to me before moving into my space. It would be hard to argue that you couldn't get a hold of me. I am quite visible.

 

Imperial Ambassador Joe

Head of Sabeli Philosophy Division

Sabeli Ecok, 2996

[EternusIV]

<-- Turok Hope we can meet at convention if we pull it off

I write more than I speak, believe me.

 

And my fingers are still pretty loose today so beware--I feel another longwinded session coming down the pike.

 

You want my honest thoughts Senator Sha'thar?

 

(Critics of the Senate rejoice - any attempts to disparage the Senate will succeed in such a mind as yours as I am about to be critical of the GS!)

 

I can see more clearly where the NAY voters of the Territory Pact and the Anti-Piracy Bill seem more sensible. Here are the difficulties we have had so far:

 

1) A border skirmish between a member and a non-member that resulted in a discussion about the circumstances of piracy

 

2) The Colony having 2 neighbors within 3 systems of his homeworld - and we have no way of proving which systems are sovereign or not

 

3) You have found an ideal world 8 systems out

 

Here is my problem with the whole "3 systems out" etc. Many times sytems loop back on each other and its almost unclear whether a system 8 systems out now will soon become 4 systems out once you knock down that Class G or I or Z Further - we have no way of proving who owns the systems. System Beacons are the only method for us to claim territory that we can verify...."first in time, first in right" I say.

 

It relates to a problem with the anti-piracy bill: as it forces the Senate to take political sides based on unverifiable word-slinging.

 

I think each Senator should take the time to think of ways in which the Senate can remain an effective organization - with bylaws that are more easily enforceable.

 

The exposure of sensitive empire data should not be a pre-requisite for enforcement - but as it stands now - the only way to examine the situations that arise is by looking at a person's PDF file directly.

 

The Territorial Pact sort of ties our hands as players - must we come to the Senate floor each time someone wants to claim a new planet? :lol: Even this breeder-senator won't be doing that

 

Perhaps we can turn to the Senate to resolve differences as a last resort to going to war. For now - we have no way of enforcing something as simple as a territorial dispute - so as a 'police body' the senate is completely worthless.

 

The trade standard idea is solid and I think the System Beacon gives us some options.

 

I foresaw these problems when the bills were passed - and I voted out of enthusiasm and respect for those that took the time to draft the bills....but now we face an interesting challenge.

 

How the heck can the Senate function effectively without requiring tedious hearings and the possiblity of corruption . Again - we cant verify ANYTHING anyone says....as an attorney that raises an alarm as to how just the Senate will become.

 

And we already know that people are willing to deceive

 

In a perfect universe where nobody would lie or cheat - the Senate could be quite effective. I am not so naive.

 

 

 

I'd colonize that world Sha'thar. I'm guessing that your people would not want to tie their paws with the red tape of the Senate over such a decision. Besides - I don't think anything in the territorial pact prevents you from coloninizing it anyway. I also commend you for being so open.

[Moonshadow]

Turok Posted on Jul 28 2004, 07:30 AM

Utter claptrap. I don't want to join the Senate because I don't want to spend my time negotiating laws that mean nothing and are changed every 5 minutes. Half the nonsense you lot discuss is only understood by the person writing it. It's not a Senate it's a Red Tape debating society where you all try to outdo eachother with words normal people just don't use...I am far from bored and I am utterly committed to my cause - the destruction of the Senate

 

Long live WHAPO

 

Your willingness to stand for nothing you can be held accountable for is noted. And the GS laws are not changed every 5 minutes, but rather under attack every 5 minutes because they are not specific enough for those who are not even members.

 

If you don't like those of us willing to debate, run along to your WHAPO group. Or is it that you're afraid we'll all forget about you if you stop showing up with the "you can't do that", "it won't work", and "I'm just gonna vaporize you" comments in Senate threads?

Under attack every 5 minutes? Senators are so sensitive. If you can not take the heat get out of the kitchen, or Senate.

Check out the WHAPO thread, Many senators are trying to act macho over there. I would say we are being attacked every 3 minutes, and we do not even have a charter, Just the Pirate Code. Also WHAPO members do not mind the attacks, we enjoy them, but becareful, we do shoot back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[looker]

Actually I figured the laws would not change (be ammended, or maybe repealed but never changed), the concern was shown to be valid when a senator's action was immediately seen as an exception (by MOST-not all- senators) to the law without the palest of inquiries.

 

The law didn't change , just how it applies to the senator class as apposed to children of a lesser gawd.

 

As old Moonshadow says, that brief response speaks more clearly than 1,000 times the rhetoric seen in GS debate.

[Justinian]

looker Posted on Jul 30 2004, 08:13 AM

Actually I figured the laws would not change (be ammended, or maybe repealed but never changed), the concern was shown to be valid when a senator's action was immediately seen as an exception (by MOST-not all- senators) to the law without the palest of inquiries.

 

The law didn't change , just how it applies to the senator class as apposed to children of a lesser gawd.

 

As old Moonshadow says, that brief response speaks more clearly than 1,000 times the rhetoric seen in GS debate.

I'm sorry, Looker, I saw some support for the Senator-in-question's action, but most Senators waited for some further details and indeed, many have not even commented. I do completely understand how this incident could affect the GS reputation.

 

However, unless I'm missing something (and I frequently do!), I don't see that AKO's actions as that big a deal. Could it have been handled better? Sure...but by BOTH sides, so let's not lay all blame at the senator's feet here. We all have different thresholds for threats and AKO was at his and pulled the trigger. Again, I'm going off what I've read about the incident so far. (BTW, I usually let the other guy take the first shot as that shows great deal in my book. Yes, I know, Turok, you would gladly shoot first )

 

Let's not just rush to paint the Senate with a broad brush...if the Senate becomes hypocritical in words/actions, I will quit it, but thus far I don't feel this comes very close.

[EternusIV]

Don't mind him, Justinian.

 

He's had it out for me ever since I tried to eat him...

 

(Five dollars if you can name that SNL episode with Walken )

[The Benthis Collective]

Sha'thar mulls something.

 

"Earlier. we discussed and passed a bill which limited, as I understand it, an empire's influence to systems three jumps away from their homeworld.

 

While this is a large expanse, the Gosht Kohr are finding few habitable worlds within this sphere of influence. On the other hand, we've found an 'ideal' world about eight jumps out, with no sign of habitation, colonial or native.

 

Frankly, we intend on colonizing it. Before that happens though, We would like to discuss an amendment to existing senatorial bills and suggest that emperial boundries become fixed -after- an empire meets a senatorial member.

 

Your thoughts, fellow senators?"

The Piracy Law allows for justified military action. These laws can not be read divorced from common sense or the general corpus of laws made by the Senate. Justified Military actions are purposely not defined because they are political in nature and go to the heart of sovereignty. If one has a legitimate claim to sovereignty, then make the claim. What one does in one's own space is no one else's business.

 

If one fires on another the Senate has no position, as my government sees it, unless and until someone brings the matter before this body. Then it seems to us that the party commiting the act of aggression should prove up its claim to sovereignty. If the space is sovereign, or a treaty between the parties has been agreed to by the parties, then this gives the Senate something to base a decision on other than mere baseless accusations.

 

If an "aggrieved" Party doesn't want to share delicate information with the Senate or the Promulgator, then don't bother whinning to us. Do what you will and handle it yourself. This Senate should not entertain every silly question or unsupported petition that comes before it. Specific questions please...

 

As for our colonies that lie outside of the three system limit, the law allows us to petition the Senate for recognition of the system or planet as sovereign.

 

Senator Logion, 4579

[The Benthis Collective]

1) A border skirmish between a member and a non-member that resulted in a discussion about the circumstances of piracy

 

2) The Colony having 2 neighbors within 3 systems of his homeworld - and we have no way of proving which systems are sovereign or not

 

3) You have found an ideal world 8 systems out

 

 

 

The laws of the Senate, when read as a whole, presume this planet that is eight jumps out to be in the Neutral zone unless and until someone else makes a claim to sovereignty which I would hope we would reject if someone else were there first. Your cats see no signs of occupation or presence by others, so colonize away. Every race in the Galaxy is entitled by our law to use and exploit neutral space. If you want to claim that colony world as sovereign, our interpretation of the law, is that you must petition the Senate and provide us with a name so we can all know it is yours. This would give you Senate authorized exclusivity. If you choose not to petition the Senate then you can still make a colony, but, vis-a-vie the Senate, everyone else is also entitled to colonize the world. In short the Senate regards it as a world that must be shared, in our interpretation of the law.

 

The Colony is a notorious band of provocateurs. Our hyperspace communications gear still reeks from the old days when the Collectivity unfortunately shared association with the Colony in another organization. If its neighbors have encroached on its sovereign space then let it do what all sovereigns do-negotiate or fight. If it wants the Senate to help be specific about the claim.

 

Senator Logion, 4579