RTGPete Posted August 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2004 I'm not interested in giving out actual XYZ coordinates for considerable balance reasons. Everybody has been making up their own de facto "real" XYZ's for 2 years now and the maps I've seen are looking pretty darned good. I see no reason to rock the boat, or tip it over entirely in the case of players who are deliberately trying to hide. In any event I'm waiting on the AstroSynthesis guys to find out if they can add warp point imports to that program. Decisions regarding methodology in giving out any XYZ's at all from this end can wait until I see how they implement that import. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octagon999 Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 I'm not interested in giving out actual XYZ coordinates for considerable balance reasons. Good. I would be upset if you did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crossroads Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Everybody has been making up their own de facto "real" XYZ's for 2 years now and the maps I've seen are looking pretty darned good. So if the maps are more or less accurate right now without the coördinates then there is no reason not to give them. People who are trying to hide are only given a false sense of safety. At least with the coördinates we mappers can save a lot of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted August 28, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 I'm not implying that whatever arbitrary XYZ's that you might have used have any relationship whatsoever to the "real" ones. They're arbitrary and chosen by you. If your map looks good and you've been able to move your fleets about, then I guess it's a pretty good map. Make up your own XYZ's and pretend that they're official for all that it matters. It's not the official XYZ's that matter anyway. It's what you assign as XYZ's that makes your map real, memorable and tied to your empire. We'll see what the folks at AstroSynthesis can come up with for warp point imports and then I can look into what's possible regarding an easy mapping export and import system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 The real issues are laying out the map so that the number of crossed warp links are eliminated or at least minimized. And doing it right the first time so that pieces of the map do not need to be moved around as new systems and links are added to the map. Minimizing crossovers in a node/edge map is a non-trivial problem, especially if distance and location are both unknown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted August 28, 2004 Report Share Posted August 28, 2004 Crossroads- I share your mapping frustrations...which is why I went out and bit the bullet on finding a mapping program a few months ago. Astrosynthesis was the best thing I found and I looked high and low...with the resources available to astrophysics students at my finger tips to boot. From turn one, I started by putting systems up on a wall. :lol: I eventually had to settle for drawing things out on paper... Some guys I know have quite a good Visio/Spreadsheet system down pat and I tried that - with varied levels of frustration. Astrosynthesis is the best solution I've found so far. Why? You can import names with a CSV file that will automatically turn into stars. It is then a simple matter of sliding them around in 3-D space until you get rid of the spaghetti. When you find new systems each turn, you simply tack them on to the existing map. The end result is something I can use - and see. Its quite a trip to rotate the systems in 3-d space, btw. I use a system that can easily label and track if a warp point is one-way or not....I even came up with a method to track Fleets (Create a blueish star and name a fleet after it and drag it around on the map like you would a fleet ) Is it a perfect situation? Not really. Astrosynthesis has a few quirky features (if you erase a star the trade routes/warp point line remain in place....sometimes you have to zoom out and then zoom back in to refocus...avoid placing systems at the top of a shpere....you'll see if you try it :lol: ) We have a tough choice: game balance v. time. Mapping, I believe, is only one of the issues. Parsing program or no, there are several other timesinks that exponentially burden us as our empires grow. RTG and the players have some tough choices ahead but I have faith the balance will be kept....if I didn't - I would have dropped a long time ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Having read the enitre thread now I will offer my humble opinions. I believe that having any type of coordinate system provided by RTG will allow for much increased contact and conquest. Once you get enough systems under your belt it would become very obvious where the holes were and where folks could be hiding. This is not a bad thing in and of itself and is one of the playtest ideas that I was really looking forward to, however at this juncture I think it is too late to change the way things are being done. As far as mapping goes I quite enjoy it and I only use an excel spreadsheet now as I don't have problems with pages. I have come to accept that I really can't easily print it out so on screen will have to do. For those concerned I am approaching 700 systems/warp points on my maps. I believe my largest one is over 300 now. It really only takes me about an hour to update them and I add about 50 systems a turn now. What I am really waiting for now is for two of my maps to link up. That will likely take a good bit of time to shuffle together, but I enjoy it. For those that aren't expansionists mapping isn't an issue. I am quite content that Pete has put his foot down on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Somebody asked what value maps are so here are some uses I find valuable. Establishing the shortest route between allies/colonies. Giving me a visual kick to determine choke points that should be defended. Provides locations for probable contact. An aid to setting up Colony nodes and trade routes. Helps me determine where to explore next and where to send the picket ships. I suppose that most of these could be done in your head or simply by looking at the WP summary of your turn. Unfortunatley that is not for me, so I map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve_Kort Posted August 31, 2004 Report Share Posted August 31, 2004 Somebody asked what value maps are so here are some uses I find valuable. Establishing the shortest route between allies/colonies. Giving me a visual kick to determine choke points that should be defended. Provides locations for probable contact. An aid to setting up Colony nodes and trade routes. Helps me determine where to explore next and where to send the picket ships. I suppose that most of these could be done in your head or simply by looking at the WP summary of your turn. Unfortunatley that is not for me, so I map. Now like I have said the info you need to figure out where someone might be hiding near you and any other concern already exists on the info everyone gets at this very moment. Having or not having accurate coordinates for your system does not change anything other than giving you the advantage of having a accurate visual to figure things out. This visual picture whether accurate or inaccurate will give people that work better with visual information a better understanding of things. Instead of having a small group of people understanding how things are set up with out a map, you make this group a much larger group. IMHO this balances the game out. I have yet to see any reason posted that shows how having accurate info will totally unbalance things in the game that is not already possible to figure out. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cestvel Posted September 1, 2004 Report Share Posted September 1, 2004 I have just completed a pathfinding program. It reads the WP Data from your database file. If you are interested PM me at mhorstma@gmx.de. Cestvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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