RTGPete Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 description of what the numerics mean in the Battle Report to be appended to the report, just like the weapon ranges? Which numerics are you referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 description of what the numerics mean in the Battle Report to be appended to the report, just like the weapon ranges? Which numerics are you referring to? Whilst we've tried to guess that the Offensive weapon numbers and the Integrity and Shields numbers are comensurate and could otherwise be called 'Hit Points', it would be great to have that confirmed.... But much more, we need to have some understanding of what the Fire Control number and the Defensive 3-decimal place numbers mean...... We can ascertain that those decimal values are determined from the item's 'strength' and the ship tonnage, but what does it do? Are they degrading percentages of those particular weapons, or something else? If they're percentages then we can see that they are mighty low and we need more to get the effect we might be after Equally, how much Fire Control do we need to target higher numbers of ships than just one? Something like 100,000 per target? And something similar for Fighters and Drones when you've decided what to show; perhaps additional Missile values - and, perhaps in the updated Naval Combat Guide, the differences for the various Fighter and Drone options? At the moment the description at the bottom of the battle report is great for helping decide which DepLoc ships and weapons should be in (although having the weapon range defined in the ANZ would be perfect), we still have no real idea of what we're doing when we decide what to actually put into a ship. Regards & Best Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Damage does not show up in the fleet reports. Whether it was the Vindicator with Medium damage (remember it all alone survived the big battle), or a lone corvette (again all by itself) rated crippled ... nothing appears in the fleet reports once the battle is over. From earlier in the thread, someone was asking how deploy location impacts weapons. Lets say there are two ships, A and B. A is at deploy location 1 and B is at Deploy location 5. Both are using standard weapons, and B has one rack of drones as well. A fires on B: From deploy location 1, A's weapons are fired at full power, no degrading. B gets some type of defensive add on for the distance that degrades the the hit (if the weapon hits). We have no information yet on what this add-on is or how badly the firepower may be reduced. B fires on A: From deploy location 5, B's weapons are degraded 40% (5-1 = 4 x 10% for standard non-point blank weapons = 40%). A in deploy location 1 gets no defensive add-ons, so every hit taken is at 60% power. B's Drones: No matter where they are fired from, drones (or fighters) do not degrade. They are not yet listed on the FOB or battle reports as to the damage / firepower they can inflict. Hopefully they are much lower that standard weapons (which would be logical as they contain engines, fuel, electronics, etc... meaning the weapon has to be small in size). But they always fight at full power, and fight until destroyed by CIDS (or perhaps other defenses beyond CIDS may exist). As you can see, there is still a lot to research and experiment with to understand how the game works ... and a lot more that can be added to battle and FOB results to enrich the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
System Lord Ra Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Nuclear Engine effectiveness with the revised rules.. ** NAVAL BATTLE REPORT ** ----- SHAI [ F (Yellow-White) 8 V ] [single Star] - Warp Point 26420 ----- ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** Roman Empire # 760 [Golden Eagle Enshrouded By A Wreath Of Olive Branches] Fleet 510 [ROE: U] *Column Attack* (Fleet Tonnage: 388,400) ... ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** The Go'ald # 3841 [Jaws Devouring A Sun With Vines Wrapping The Sun] 106th Recon Group [ROE: Q] *Column Attack* (Fleet Tonnage: 97,400) ... Side 1: Roman Empire # 760 Fire Control: 230,000 -------------------------------------------------- DepLoc 1 ------------------------------------------------------------ CL Maniple (Light Cruiser - 194,200 tons) [integrity: 469,200] [shields: 67,500] (Green, Timid) 100 20cm Autocannon, 1,000 6cm Gatling CIDS, 10 Battle Imaging System, 5 Fuel Shuttle, 5,000 Fuel Tankage 25 Mk I Computer System, 225 Mk I Force Shield, 25 Mk I Medium Range Sensor, 1 Mk I Nuclear Engine 1 Mk I Nuclear Jump Drive, 50 Mk I Short Range Sensor, 125 Mk IV Short Range Torpedo, 40,000 Titanium Composite Armor 5 Type A Defense Screen, 5 Type A ECM Package Missile: 500,000, Projectile: 44,000 ECM: 0.128, Maneuverability: 0.001, Point Defense: 1.029, Screens: 0.128, Sensors: 0.128 CL Maniple (Light Cruiser - 194,200 tons) [integrity: 469,200] [shields: 67,500] (Green, Timid) Side 2: The Go'ald # 3841 Fire Control: 10,000 -------------------------------------------------- DepLoc 7 ------------------------------------------------------------ **DESTROYED** [1st] XS Kal Athra (Express Ship - 97,400 tons) [integrity: 77,400] (Green, Timid) 1 Battle Imaging System, 2 Fuel Shuttle, 10,000 Fuel Tankage, 1 Mk I Computer System, 1 Mk III Jump Survey Sensor 500 Mk IV Nuclear Engine, 1 Nuclear Transwarp Drive, 1,000 Reflective Armor Coating, 5,000 Standard Hull Plate Maneuverability: 10.266, Reflective Coating: 0.051 A Roman Empire Manicle hammers a Go'ald Kal Athra in the Shai system. A weapon's effectiveness drops off by 10% per Deploy Location after its maximum normal range. Point Blank class weapons drop off by 20% per Deploy Location, but have a higher base damage if firing from Deploy Location 1. The bonus is included in the damage output value listed next to the ship's weapons, above. Missiles/Torpedos : Point Blank [1], Short [2], Medium [5], Long [8], Standoff [10] (all 10% dropoff) Other : Standard [1] (10% dropoff), Point Blank [1] (20% dropoff, bonus from [1]) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Nuclear Engine effectiveness with the revised rules.. Oooh, fingers burnt in the Shai system 'Mad Martin', me old pirate - another empire you've swapped so you can play with yourself... :lol: So, Nuclear Engines no change... B fires on A: From deploy location 5, B's weapons are degraded 40% (5-1 = 4 x 10% for standard non-point blank weapons = 40%). A in deploy location 1 gets no defensive add-ons, so every hit taken is at 60% power. And thanks WKE, but we wonder if it's not linear, but one of those curvy things the Oracle likes..... We've seen Point Blank weapons firing from DepLoc 7 and still hitting, so it's not a base linear 20% reduction, or they'd be zero from 6 onwards. This would make sense, however, if it was a percent on percent reduction... So, in your example above, the standard weapons would be firing at 65.61% by DepLoc 5 and would even have a 31.38% effect from DepLoc 12. Now, if the defense effect worked the same way, then a standard weapon firing from DepLoc 12 to defensive DepLoc 12, would still scrape 9.85% of it's power left. However, if there's nothing between 1 and 11 for the defender, how can they stay at 12 when actually they're in the 'front' rank...... We just don't know..... But wouldn't a long range battle last a long time! Bring the popcorn! Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Another empire I have swapped with myself so I can play with myself... Not sure how it works in England but if I wanted to play with myself Empire swapping would not be at the top of my list. Sorry to disappoint I have never traded for this Empire. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Merely restating what shows up at the end of each battle report. Namely, this: A weapon's effectiveness drops off by 10% per Deploy Location after its maximum normal range. Point Blank class weapons drop off by 20% per Deploy Location, but have a higher base damage if firing from Deploy Location 1. The bonus is included in the damage output value listed next to the ship's weapons, above. Missiles/Torpedos : Point Blank [1], Short [2], Medium [5], Long [8], Standoff [10] (all 10% dropoff) Other : Standard [1] (10% dropoff), Point Blank [1] (20% dropoff, bonus from [1]) I sent a mail to Pete specifically with the examples I listed here, and he responded Correct to each line. (with B firing on A, I did not state it was a standard weapon, and he helpfully added -- Correct - though it might not be 40%, depending on the kind of weapon being fired (plasma torps would degrade more, as they are point blank range weapons to begin with). So, 40% for standard, 80% for Point Blank. So for a standard weapon at Deploy location 7, the dropoff should be 60%. Could it be the weapon you were looking at was standard and not point blank? So at Deploy location 7, you woudl still get hits, but at 40% strength firing. I would guess a point blank weapon fired from Deploy location 6 or greater would do ZERO damage. That is unless there is some minimum built into the game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Merely restating what shows up at the end of each battle report. Namely, this: A weapon's effectiveness drops off by 10% per Deploy Location after its maximum normal range. Point Blank class weapons drop off by 20% per Deploy Location, but have a higher base damage if firing from Deploy Location 1. The bonus is included in the damage output value listed next to the ship's weapons, above. Missiles/Torpedos : Point Blank [1], Short [2], Medium [5], Long [8], Standoff [10] (all 10% dropoff) Other : Standard [1] (10% dropoff), Point Blank [1] (20% dropoff, bonus from [1]) I sent a mail to Pete specifically with the examples I listed here, and he responded Correct to each line. (with B firing on A, I did not state it was a standard weapon, and he helpfully added -- Correct - though it might not be 40%, depending on the kind of weapon being fired (plasma torps would degrade more, as they are point blank range weapons to begin with). So, 40% for standard, 80% for Point Blank. So for a standard weapon at Deploy location 7, the dropoff should be 60%. Could it be the weapon you were looking at was standard and not point blank? So at Deploy location 7, you woudl still get hits, but at 40% strength firing. I would guess a point blank weapon fired from Deploy location 6 or greater would do ZERO damage. That is unless there is some minimum built into the game? No disagreement with what it says at the bottom of the Battle Report, WKE, but without something like the answer you got, it could be either..... So "a weapon's effectiveness drops off by 10% per Deploy Location after its maximum normal range" could mean, eg... DL1=100 DL2= 90 DL3= 80 DL4= 70 etc or DL1=100 DL2= 90 DL3= 81 DL4= 72.90 etc ie a base-linear reduction (first example) or a compounded rate (second). The second does mean that even at DL12 all weapons have at least some (in some cases very marginal ) effect. The weapon I saw still getting, and indeed destroying, a target from DL7 with Point Blank, were Light Plasma Hellbores, which I'm pretty sure is Point Blank - it certainly showed the Point Blank 'bonus' - so I therefore took that as evidence for the second option. However, another option could be that, given that there was nothing in DLs 1-6 for the fleet in question, DL7 could have become DL1 - but that's not the impression I've been given before. Perhaps Pete could just let us know whether it is Base-Linear or Compound? If it is base-linear and that the DL is fixed, then we'd know that ships in DL11 & DL12 are completely safe from all weapons less Medium and longer ranged Missiles, plus Fighters and Drones. Because I don't think that's the case, our best guess today is for the compound effect. Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 It was my understanding that wepons fired at 100% until they were out of the optimal range for the weapon. So a standard weapon without a range descriptor would be classified as a medium range weapon and good to go through range 5. That same weapon would then be at a 10% reduction at range 6 not 60% reduction or else what is the point of ranged weapons? The result is that weapons start taking damage penalties only after they have exceeded the assigned optimal range for the weapon. I also doubt that a weapon can be reduced to zero damage due to range. There have been battles with scouts and such at long range and somebody generally gets destroyed. Now if this destruction takes 10,000 raouhnds then one would like to know that as well as knowing if the destruction was due to overheating the phase inverter when trying to fire the weapon for 10 hours continuously. Any enlightenment here would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted October 25, 2004 Report Share Posted October 25, 2004 Knowing the optimal range of a weapon would be nice. At least the description Pete put out has implied that Point Blank and Standard Weapons both have optimal locations of 1. I've tried talking to my scientists about this. Even applied the thumbscrews. But none of them will talk. Sure they can design a weapon. But they can't tell me how to best use it. A little clarification would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 It was my understanding that wepons fired at 100% until they were out of the optimal range for the weapon. So a standard weapon without a range descriptor would be classified as a medium range weapon and good to go through range 5. That same weapon would then be at a 10% reduction at range 6 not 60% reduction or else what is the point of ranged weapons? The result is that weapons start taking damage penalties only after they have exceeded the assigned optimal range for the weapon. Yes indeed, except that the Medium would only seem to apply to missiles and torpedoes that don't otherwise explicity say they are Short, Long or Standoff. All other weapons would seem to fall in the Standard, or specifically Point Blank, categories. I also doubt that a weapon can be reduced to zero damage due to range. There have been battles with scouts and such at long range and somebody generally gets destroyed. Now if this destruction takes 10,000 raouhnds then one would like to know that as well as knowing if the destruction was due to overheating the phase inverter when trying to fire the weapon for 10 hours continuously. And it is for this reason that I have assumed that the drop off is a compound effect as that would mean that ALL weapons would cause at least some damage - it might just not be very much. Any enlightenment here would be nice. Oh yes! Indeed the more we think about it - the idea of having the Battle Report Summary as we get now (with just a few tweaks), but at the end of every 'round', would probably answer many of our questions without much extra effort. We're sure this would also be relatively easy to code and just result in longer files. It would both allow the Great Oracle to check that things were going okay and allow us to see all the effects that would then enable ship & fleet design.... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Why would medium range only apply to missiles and torpedoes? This assumption doesn't really make any sense to me so please explain. I would rather work on the assumption that everything is more or less mid ranged unless specified in the description. Since we have descriptions of short and point blank ranges, this theory is supported in my opinion. It also make no sense that we are all going to line up at range 1 like colonial troops and take turns shooting at each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 26, 2004 Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 It also make no sense that we are all going to line up at range 1 like colonial troops and take turns shooting at each other. 100, 90, 80 etc with a minimum (won't go to zero). Lining everything up front doesn't make any sense to me, either. I wouldn't want to line all of my ships up in DepLoc 1 regardless of design, though some players might do that. Some weapon systems fire just fine from further back, so there would be little reason to put them up front and suffer greater targeting chances and no defensive benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 100, 90, 80 etc with a minimum (won't go to zero). Ah ha! So it is Linear - but not 10% or 20% dropoff per DepLoc as written, as it has a minimum. Can we know what the minimum is - perhaps it could be put in the description at the end of the battle report? Could we have an answer on the Battle Report numerics? They make sense, we just don't know what they are! Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 26, 2004 Why would medium range only apply to missiles and torpedoes? This assumption doesn't really make any sense to me so please explain. I would rather work on the assumption that everything is more or less mid ranged unless specified in the description. Since we have descriptions of short and point blank ranges, this theory is supported in my opinion. It also make no sense that we are all going to line up at range 1 like colonial troops and take turns shooting at each other. As we have seen above and at the end of the Battle Reports - it's only Missiles and Torpedoes that have the options of Point Blank, Short, Medium, Long and Standoff. All other weapons are only either Standard or Point Blank. The Point Blank ones are those with the higher rating, Thermal Lances, Mine Racks and Hellbores seem to be examples. All other weapons like Cannon, Guns, Frost thingy's, Plasma Cannons, Disruptors etc are therefore assumed to be Standard..... That's our best guess today! Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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