Bashkar WP Assault repelled

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Well, we know by now it's obvious that we like the battle system tremendously, but we wanted to add something.....

 

Can we suggest a little bit of out of the box thinking and some serious re-reading of some science fiction - particularly the Weber-White stuff.

 

Firstly, the combat system is designed to get a particular result, not the apparent way it seems to get there - think Strategy, not Tactics - this is a strategic game, not a tactical one.

 

Secondly, don't think of these 'junkers' as ships, think of them as minefields (even occasionally and slightly mobile minefields) and then realise how defensive they are......

 

Finally, forget blue-water navy thinking and, I suspect, 'Victory' combat. Try to think 3-D combat, and perhaps, at worst, aerial combat. Perhaps think WW2 Anglo-German air combat which culminated in when the US joined in for the different facets.....

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

 

PS If you loved SNII combat, then there's probably no hope..........

[ShadowKitsune]

I cannot make any sense out of the batrep and frankly, the fleet admiral and ALL of his advisors DESERVED to die from making such poor decisions.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I have to back up the Bashkar representative on his statement concerning the Battle Report. I must need Mk II Cypherin' or something.

[General Miles Avatar]

Take a CLOSER look at the lack of armor or substantial shielding on the attacking ships. Yes

they where large and yes they had awesome FC and weapons but remember the fire is

simultaneous. 3 of the attacking ships killed 24 of the defenders in what most likely is the

first combat round maybe the second. With little shields and what little armor there

was on the Attacking ships, that first round of defending fire probably damaged the attacing shps

so serverely( with little armor or shields vital systems where killed) that they became combat

ineffective. Like Pete said they were not designed to fight a prolonged battle and it is readily

apparrent at least to Us that building tons of screens isnt required if you build your ships

with survivability in mind. You might even build your screens with this in mind making it tougher

for them to die and keep your really big guns or carriers in the fight longer.

[Ixpuztec]

The Bashkar has multiple varieties of bridge systems, but went to war with titanium armor and MK I force shields? Shoot the scientists, not the admirals

 

-IXY

[General Miles Avatar]

while it is true that he did have some armor and some shields it was a very small percentage of the ships mass. There wasnt enough of it to increase the integrity of the attacking vessels and hence they werent survivable in a prolonged engagement. Granted if it was quick and dirty(if there were no screens involved) the battle most likely would have gone the other way.

[Ixpuztec]

While it can be said to add a bigger stick to win, if the Titanium was replaced with Cordellium the results would have changed. Plug it in and do the math.

 

Quality is more important than Quantity.

 

-IXY

 

while it is true that he did have some armor and some shields it was a very small percentage of the ships mass. There wasnt enough of it to increase the integrity of the attacking vessels and hence they werent survivable in a prolonged engagement. Granted if it was quick and dirty(if there were no screens involved) the battle most likely would have gone the other way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Kahless]

Perhaps I am wrong, but nobody has mentioned what the 3 strike cruisers and 1 battle cruiser were doing while the screening ships absorbed all that damage.(which was their job)

The 4 ships had a Plasma damage rating of 7,128,000. I for one would be interested in how many pulses this battle actually lasted. Possibly 3 ?

 

Kahless

[Ixpuztec]

30/6 = 5 rounds.

 

Perhaps I am wrong, but nobody has mentioned what the 3 strike cruisers and 1 battle cruiser were doing while the screening ships absorbed all that damage.(which was their job)

   The 4 ships had a Plasma damage rating of 7,128,000. I for one would be interested in how many pulses this battle actually lasted. Possibly 3 ?

 

                            Kahless

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[WKE235]

All ships in the Apshai fleet were in Deploy location 1 (needed to maximize the firepower of Plasma weapons). Overall the fleet had 7,128,000 firepower on the main ships + another 300,000 odds and ends among the lesser ships. Say 7,500,000 to keep it simple. Apshai had a FC of 1.

 

The Bashkar fleet entered with a Fire Control rating of 6. It appears the FC of the fleet is calculated before the WP jump. Otherwise it would have to be recalculated every round as ships enter through the WP (messy). Of course doing it at a fleet level means the Monitors had a FC of 6, even if the War Command Cruiser came through last. Anyway, you would expect to see up to 6 targets hit per round.

 

Total ships destroyed in the battle was 30. Bashkar ships were the 10th, 14th, and 27th destroyed. All others Apshai (note how the Bashkar got all of their fire in the last round .. fire in a round is simultaneous). So there was at least four rounds of battle, maybe five. Five makes sense to me as I imagine the Apshai fire was on BM-1, then the WC (destroyed 10th), then BM-1 (destroyed 14th), then BM-2, then BM-2 (destroyed 27th).

 

If this is correct, the 7,500,000 fire from the Apshai was reduced each round due to various reasons. Most likely the distance. One thing Pete has not mentioned (or at least I've overlooked) is what is the defensive bonus for distance away from Deploy location. With Bashkar at deploy location 7, they appear to have gotten somewhere from a 5%-10% reduction in hit with fire for each location past 1 (6 steps = 30-60% reduction). Other factors (ship speed, crew morale, Admirals in place, racial bonuses which we've talked very little about) may have influenced this (in ways we have not been told about). But 5% would be just about enough to miss destroying a BM in one shot, while 10% would just be about enough to still get the BM's in only two shots. Give or take a little.

 

Lucky for me the BM's and WC came in at Deploy Location 7 instead of 12.

[Marvin]

Lucky for me the BM's and WC came in at Deploy Location 7 instead of 12.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You could have lost several more 1,000 ton ships otherwise.

[Galreth]

Quality is more important than Quantity.

Or as the Soviets played it, "Quantity has a quality all its own."

[Galreth]

Congratulations are in order for your victory....

Yes, congratulations on such a victory--well done.

[octagon999]

ShadowKitsune:

 

"I have to back up the Bashkar representative on his statement concerning the Battle Report. I must need Mk II Cypherin' or something."

 

LOL I had visions of Jethro Bodine playing SNROTE!

[ShadowKitsune]

ShadowKitsune:

 

"I have to back up the Bashkar representative on his statement concerning the Battle Report.  I must need Mk II Cypherin' or something."

 

LOL I had visions of Jethro Bodine playing SNROTE!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Fear the Beverly Space Hillbillies!

[EternusIV]

Just a few quick repsonses pertaining to the actual mechanics of things:

 

1) After compiling Pete's comments from the boards and the discussions with Pete on the boards about fire control, I do not think the game is "broken" (although I admit I was concerned at first blush once I saw the devastating power of screen ships)

 

2) The counters against a screened fleet are spelled out in that infamous thread....which were posted in advance of the Bashkar assault. Hell, the issue doesn't even come up until Ken publishes his combat results from several months ago....he is at last on both sides of the rule and was very wise for implementing screen ships

 

3) Yes the game is slowed down...for now...you can't zip around with a huge NTWD-driven fleet without screens and expect dominating success DESPITE how massive or uber your weapons are. I've done the calculations for how much larger the Bashkar fleet would have to be to have sufficient fire control to counter Ken.....TRIPLE your fleet tonnage and expect almost six more turns of building nothing but electronics!

 

4) Ok...so wheen do screen wars end? First evil emporer to adopt a fire control of 64,000 will have the option of building little Screen-Fleer killers to clear the way for the hammer fleets. In fact 32,000 will prove efficient enough to consider....it depends how reluctant the defender is in accepting the whole screen defense strategy.

 

My challenge is still out there for ANYONE: design a fleet (using bridge components with under 64,000 FC) that can counter over 50 screens in one combat battle that takes you only TWICE the resources as the defende in building an effective cruiser + screens.

 

Translation = Get used to Screen Wars until we improve our fire control. There will be a day when the screen strategy will be obsolete....but it is a day far off in the future unless you focus your research on fire control.

 

Another possibilty: tehcnology that will move screenies to the front with more ease than one jump at a time

 

My only remaining concern is that I hear you can build screen ships with nothing but basic resources....is this true? I've seen a PDF where the NUD Review Board approves the construction of Screen SHips with nothing more than light metals and a few black market goods......if THATS possible, then we have TOO MUCH of a resource efficiency advantage for the attacker.

 

Pete, can you comment on that? (Plus, feel free to share some basic secrets on how I can play A-H a little better if I'm stuck with them at GenCon next year )