Bashkar WP Assault repelled

[Ixpuztec]

Pete's quote was: "I believe it recalculates from time to time - it's buried deep in the code but probably does."

 

There is no guarantee that fire control is currently re-calculated every round.

 

-IXY

 

 

Fire Control ratings go down as you lose your fire control components.....if you have a large ship with nothing but computers and it dies in the first round, your fire control will plummet for subsequent rounds.

 

This isn't me talking.  Pete has mentioned this in past posts (as recently as a month ago?)

[octagon999]

Slith Says:

 

"... I would prefer for RTG to give us the rules and mechanics of how the game works, and let players develop our own strategies and tactics. "

 

Only problem is, we don't have nearly all the mechanics. This isn't whining or complaining, just the way it is. We have at least a partial black box situation. I understand why players are grasping for whatever definitive information they can get.

[athonian]

so we're all damned i guess?

 

 

hmm.. well for dr o. radar picks up location and size and sometimes even shape ... have you ever seen a movie where the blips on the radar are huge compared to the other stuff on the radar?

 

 

eh. i don't mind the system at all. and seeing how the strat is to build many versus one my billion ton ship plan is scrapped. =P

[Ur Lord Tedric]

ULT-

 

I'm not so sure that the mechanics for warp bubbles are being reported yet (I'm sure its IN....it just doenst show up on reports)  I've seen a warp point assault or two with many ships and there is nothing in the report to indicate that screen ships were slaughtered asthey came through....I havent seen an extreme case yet but I'm guessing that you can create very tiny warp bubbles for screen ships to where you can squeeze them through no problemo.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Yes, you're quite right, we only see the result of fleet battles.....

 

We know it would take reams of extra results, but you don't actually NEED to print them out, they're only electronic......but we would dearly love to see a 'round by round' result, particularly for a WP assault...

 

We'd see fighters and drones only entering the battle when their carriers came through, we'd see Fire Control vary depending on which ships had entered the battle, we'd see ships get ever more damaged as the fight went on, we could see which ships were targetted that round - etc.....

 

But on the other point, the smallest you can make a Warp Bubble is '1', that's why my point that screening ships of junkers wouldn't make very good WP Assault ships. You could get up to 50 of them through per round and all 50 could be destroyed every round and they'd end up all gone when the capital ships came through.....

 

Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric

[WKE235]

I do not think Fire control varies as ships come through the WP. From the battles I've had, it appears that Fire Control is calculated at the fleet level before the start of the battle. If it does change sometime later for some reason, I have yet to see that clearly occur.

 

For example, in the battle that started this thread, each Bashkar Battle Monitor had a Fire Control of 1 by themselves, and the War Command Cruiser had a Fire Control of 24 by itself. All together, the fleet Fire Control was 6. From the battle results, you can clearly see that the Bashkar fleet was firing on 6 ships per round right from the start (as soon as one ship came through the WP). If fire control was based on who came through the WP and adjusted as other ships joined, the first ship through, a BM, would have had a FC of 1. That did not happen.

 

Remember that how the program works, all movement orders are first processed. So, Bashkar moves through the WP into Nikula. My order that cycle is processed (and I did not move away from the WP). And the end of all movement then if the fleets are still in contact, the battle commences. So to the computer, all the ships are present on one side, and it simply calcs the fleet Fire Control based on that.

 

Now it does appear that as the battle rounds go forward, ships are moved into battle from the WP. They don't all jump into battle, but move into battle like they are exiting the WP. It's almost like the WP acts as a holding queue, and all the ships end up in the new star system, arranged in an order for battle if one occurs. But the key is, fleet level figures like Fire Control are still figured for the entire fleet. They do not appear to depend on which ships exits the WP and when.

[EternusIV]

I think open discussion and clarification of all strategies and rules creates a more competitive playing field. I think its more legit for players to have sour grapes about not understanding the game due to a lack of information than to have sour grapes about losing a battle once having the information.

 

I also think that everyone should have access to all the combat nuances 'discovered' thus far - heh - I guess I don't like games where you have to 'discover' the rules. It only opens up extreme disappointment to the person whose mind works a little differently than the rest. I suppose we punish the creative ones who 'guess' correctly about how the game actually works -- but rules should be disclosed in a manner by the GM - and player community - to prevent such a potential imbalance. Let strategy - not loophole exploitation and lucky guesswork about the rules - decide the game.

 

The game is big enough to implement a wide array of strategies. But shouldn't we know which strategies work within the rules beforehand? Its tough to make smart choices if you don't know your realistic options.

 

Is it fair for one player to approach Pete (or simply tinker with the Orders) about something that potentially unbalance the game while keeping others in the dark? (The JETT loophole comes to mind...and the allied pop-group thing....)

 

Unless I'm completely in the dark, I don't see any single strategy - disclosed or otherwise - that acts as an "I win button" for the game...so I suppose there is no major cuase for alarm on either side of the debate

 

However, I can already foresee the "I quit because [iNSERT GUESS ON HOW RULES WORK HERE] did/did not work. Bye-Bye" postings.......how can we avoid these?

 

I'm certain Pete has said more than once that fire control is calculated at the beginning of the round as Ken suggests and CAN drop afterwards. I'll sift through the materials I have. Best to re-ask Pete directly I suppose

 

I plan on sending a revision ot Russ within the next 48 hours

 

/steps off soapbox and looks forward to further discussion....sorting out the ruleset makes the community, and therefore, this silly game, a more enjoyable place in my mind.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Whilst I suspect that WKE is right about the Fleet's moving into the system completely and then the computer 'adds' ships when it knows it's a WP Assault battle rather than an 'open-space' battle; and whilst I suspect that he's also possibly right that the FC is calculated accross the entire fleet to start with, that equally possibly doesn't make sense, nor does it have to be coded that way.

 

However, I could probably live with it, because the FC mechanism may be okay looked at that way, although it doesn't seem 'logical' - how could a Fleet Flagship that's actually many light years away in the 'other' system affect the ship's that have already gone through the WP......????

 

Equally, however, I VERY much hope and pray that Fighters and Drones aren't simply left at the Fleet level, because that would be plain stupid.

 

If your fleet has 20,000+ fighters in Carriers in DL12 that are planned to come through the WP last, then they shouldn't appear until the carriers do and are not all available as one 'tiny' assault ship get's through.....

 

This is one reason I'd love a round by round description - I'd like to know that.

 

If that's not the case, then F&Ds are just the same stupendous weapons they've always been in SN and there'd be no other choice......

 

Mx

[Kurassier]

Well, from a strictly logical standpoint, fire control should be calculated each round on a WP assault. After all, if my first 3 ships through have little fire control, why should they benefit from the FC on my command ship on the other side of the WP? Unless of course, the command ship(s) can 'communicate' and receive information that still affects FC. Of course if that's the case, leave the command ship with all the FC on the other side of the WP and don't send it through until the battles over.

 

Equally, however, I VERY much hope and pray that Fighters and Drones aren't simply left at the Fleet level, because that would be plain stupid.

 

Also, Drones and Fighters had better not be allowed be allowed to fight unless their ship is through the WP. Just like I would presume none of the other weapons would fire without their ship there. After all last I checked, fighters and drones don't have jump drives.

Which of course bring up the next question regarding drones and fighters. They should be stored on a ship level, not a fleet level. If I have 10 CV's and 5 make it through, it should be the fighters from those 5 ships, not just 1/2 the fleet's fighters. (of course if they are all the same it's a moot point, but you get my drift)

[RTGPete]

Also, Drones and Fighters had better not be allowed be allowed to fight unless their ship is through the WP.    Just like I would presume none of the other weapons would fire without their ship there.  After all last I checked, fighters and drones don't have jump drives.

  Which of course bring up the next question regarding drones and fighters.  They should be stored on a ship level, not a fleet level.  If I have 10 CV's and 5 make it through, it should be the fighters from those 5 ships, not just 1/2 the fleet's fighters. (of course if they are all the same it's a moot point, but you get my drift)

 

I'll be updating the Space Combat document following this turn. I'm out of town this weekend, but will be back and can get to the Space Combat doc then. I will be adding considerable detail regarding fighters, drones, point defenses and general defensive systems.

 

Fighters and drones, like all cargo items, are stored at the fleet level. All carriers "make it through" the warp point, and indeed must go through once committed to a jump - it's just a question of when they show up for targeting purposes.

[WKE235]

So fighters and drones are stored at the fleet level. That's fine, and I'm sure makes the recording keeping easier. And, you mention that the carriers all jump through, it's just a matter of when they show up for targetting purposes. I take this to mean three things:

 

1) In a WP assault, the carriers each enter battle in some order based on how they jumped through the WP, warp bubble sizes (to allow multiple ships to jump in a round), etc... So in the space battle, Carrier X shows up round 1, Carrier Y round 2, etc... (or whatever was appropriate).

 

2) Since the carriers enter in some order round after round (until all are engaged), only those carriers in the fleet that have engaged in battle can be targetted / fired on.

 

3) Since the carriers enter in some order round after round (until all are engaged), only those carriers in the fleet that have engaged in battle will release there fighters into the battle. So say each ship has 500 fighters, then round 1 would be attacking with 500 fighters, round 2 with 1000 fighters (less those lost to CIDS fire), round three 1500 (less CIDS), etc... as the carriers join the battle.

 

Is this all true?

[MacBeth]

re:

"3) Since the carriers enter in some order round after round (until all are engaged), only those carriers in the fleet that have engaged in battle will release there fighters into the battle. So say each ship has 500 fighters, then round 1 would be attacking with 500 fighters, round 2 with 1000 fighters (less those lost to CIDS fire), round three 1500 (less CIDS), etc... as the carriers join the battle.

 

Is this all true?"

 

No.

(But this is my opinion.)

 

On the other hand, see Russ' comment under the "Fighters and Drones" thread.

 

"Yes, Fighters and Drones are stored at the fleet level so they will be present in the fight as soon as the attacking force starts to transit (they are not stored by unit so do not depend on specific units coming through)."

 

Picture a Babylon 5 warp window with all the fighters and drones packed around the first ship through.

[WKE235]

I hope your wrong ... for if fighters / drones are at the fleet level and all launch immediately into the fray .. then the combat process would be unbalanced to an incredible degree. Why?

 

Just build a mega-size carrier, and a screening fleet of small ships. Make sure the screening ships have warp bubbles such that only one at a time can go through even the most generous WP. Place the screen in formation A, the Carrier in formation N, and use standard line. Add a couple of Capital ships in mid-level formation / deploy locations if you like, to add an extra layer of protection over the carrier.

 

Now, on any WP assault, the screens go through from deploy location 1, formation A one at a time, before the carrier comes though in Deploy Location 12, formation N, for targetting purposes (or any mid-level Capital ships). The enemy force would never be able to shoot at the carrier until the one per round screen is gone. In the meantime, a 5000 strong fleet of attack fighters could be decimating your forces. You get shot at for 30, 40, even more rounds by a huge attack force while all you can do is shoot back at is screen ships. Maybe if your CIDS (or Interceptors) are good enough, you might survive. But those CIDS had better be Good or better. Otherwise even a massive fleet could be wiped out

 

It could be argued this simulates a Carrier Group attack on another fleet. Except for the fact that if the fleet your attacking also has drones / fighters, unlike a "sea like" battle, they could not target you back. They are limited to firing on what comes through to targetting via the WP process. While you could fire to your hearts content on anything.

 

So, we still need Pete's answer on this.

[hobknob]

It really doesn't matter if your carrier is in the back or if it gets destroyed first or last since the fighters will stay around until the end of combat which entails the destruction of one side or the other. Even if a carrier gets destroyed on the impulse that it actually appears in the battle the fighters will still be launched and will then stay around until the end of the battle anyway.

 

I have my own concerns but at this juncture I think it best to wait for the document that Pete and Russ have mentioned.

 

[RTGRuss]

The paragraph from my post on the other thread is correct

 

"Yes, Fighters and Drones are stored at the fleet level so they will be present in the fight as soon as the attacking force starts to transit (they are not stored by unit so do not depend on specific units coming through)."

 

This is by design and other parts of the system are based on it. There are some really good code reasons why we wouldn't want to change it as well but that will usually be the case unless we feel that the system is just unworkable and has to be completely redone.

 

The strategy outlined by WKE235 is a possible one and, given the correct circumstances, it could be very successful. There will be mismatches from time to time that result in overwhelming victory or defeat. I don't really want to put myself in the position of commenting a lot on combat strategy as that is really something that should be for the players to kick around but some general thoughts.

 

Our goal is a combat system that doesn't have an easy mathematical certainty (i.e. bigger fleet always wins) and that doesn't have an easy tactical certainty (i.e. fighters always win or fighters always lose). Technology can give you a great advantage but it won't make you invincible. Tonnage and numbers are great to have but they don't guarantee victory either. The ability to design/build/execute a winning strategy against a known defense should be a good thing and, conversely, the ability to design/build/execute a winning defensive strategy against a known offense also should be a good thing.

 

Given the strategy offered as an example - can you envision a lot of situations where it would work well? Can you also envision situations where the defender, particularly if he knows what is coming, could craft a defense to counter it and deal a crushing defeat to the attacker? If the answer is yes to both questions then I think the system is pretty close to the mark. It will never be perfect but if it generates constant thought as to strategy, ship design and intelligence gathering then I think that it is doing a pretty good job.

 

The reality is that you will rarely be able to attack or defend with 100% certainty and your forces will always be fighting in less than idea circumstances - particularly against active players. The tonnage on each side will rarely be equal, the tech will rarely be equal and your intelligence as to what is on the other side of a given warp point (or what is about to come through a given warp point) can change on a single order pulse) and the enemy may well surprise you with an important battle not in a place of your choosing.

 

You are going to see lopsided battles from time to time, particularly when specific combat strategies are in play, but I do believe that the system gives folks a lot of tools to work with.

 

 

Russ

[Paradigm]

Yet another swarm advantage.