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Fighters and Drones


Ur Lord Tedric
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The issue with fighters is that "if" the fighters had not launched until the ship showed then you would not have had to face "all" of the fighters beofre the last carrier arrived. That would have given the defender a few pulses to eliminate part of a smaller force of fighters. It also puts the big expensive carrier out of harms way so it will be even less likely to be targeted.

 

As I see it at least...

 

:P

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Yep, that is the issue.

 

We know that all movement occurs first when processing a set of orders. If two fleets are in the same spot after movement, a battle can then occur. If one fleet came through a WP, then ships from that fleet are released into the battle for targetting in some specific order (based on WP size, wp bubbles generated, and ship mission class/formation). This is done to simulate the ships going through a WP into a battle. All nicely done.

 

But, there is a problem. Items that are controlled and stored at the "Fleet" level instead of the ship level all come through the WP all at once. This applies to fire control (see even if your lumbering big ships go through first, they still get any bonuses from a command ship and could have higher fire controls than they would alone). It applies to characters (so your Admiral of the fleet is immediately there giving orders and again perhaps boosting Fire Control). And as we can see now, it applies to Fighters and Drones as well.

 

So the bigger issue is, why attempt to simulate a Warp Point jump by moving ships into targetting in some order, when not everything is being simulated? Why have all the fleet level items suddenly just appear in the battle, while the ships appear one by one over rounds? Having one simulated and not the other just does not seem right.

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Yep, that is the issue.

 

We know that all movement occurs first when processing a set of orders.  If two fleets are in the same spot after movement, a battle can then occur.  If one fleet came through a WP, then ships from that fleet are released into the battle for targetting in some specific order (based on WP size, wp bubbles generated, and ship mission class/formation).  This is done to simulate the ships going through a WP into a battle.  All nicely done. 

 

But, there is a problem.  Items that are controlled and stored at the "Fleet" level instead of the ship level all come through the WP all at once.  This applies to fire control (see even if your lumbering big ships go through first, they still get any bonuses from a command ship and could have higher fire controls than they would alone).  It applies to characters (so your Admiral of the fleet is immediately there giving orders and again perhaps boosting Fire Control).  And as we can see now, it applies to Fighters and Drones as well. 

 

So the bigger issue is, why attempt to simulate a Warp Point jump by moving ships into targetting in some order, when not everything is being simulated?  Why have all the fleet level items suddenly just appear in the battle, while the ships appear one by one over rounds?  Having one simulated and not the other just does not seem right.

 

 

I'm a newbie with only 2 turns under my belt so I'm a little hesitant to join this conversation, but it seems that what makes sense is a somewhat subjective thing.

 

If we assume that communication through a WP is instantaneous and not restricted by needing a warp bubble then it makes sense that fire control and an Admiral would be able react just as if they were on this side of the WP, even though they are far away.

 

Of course if the energy of the communication can travel the WP then why can't the energy of a weapon? Well, maybe communications don't even travel through WPs. After all, diplomatic traffic doesn't require that you even know where the other empire is, much less have a chain of WPs mapped between you (At least I think that's true). Maybe all communication is instantaneous and done outside of WPs?

 

The F&Ds are a little harder to explain, but maybe once in 'warp space' they can ride the warp bubble of the fleet, and since they're so small they can fit through the warp point with the first warp bubble through? I'm sure there's some clever explanation for it that would fit.

 

Ultimately, our imaginations flavor how we perceive the universe, and how we think it should work, but only the GMs perception is the correct one. We have to slowly meld our perception to theirs. Sorry, that sounded a little preachy, which wasn't my intent at all (grovelling at the feet of the masters hoping to catch a crumb). I just hoped to offer a different perspective.

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Ok, so now to rant against my own post.

 

Regardless of what perceptions we as players have about the mechanics of the universe, our races have advanced to the point of warp point travel, etc. etc. and are bound to have a relatively accurate understanding of the underlying principles involved. No doubt they've always understood that all the F&Ds come through on the first pulse.

 

So the real problem is that it's kinda difficult to 'meld our perceptions to that of the GMs' if we aren't given a fairly accurate picture of the mechanics. Mechanics that our races would certainly understand quite well. Sounds like that's the real bottom line of what everyones complaining about.

 

Hopefully the new naval combat doc the GM's are preparing will do the trick.

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Most of this argument will make very little difference to a new player/position. It really only matters to those that have already invested 2+ years to a position and some basic assumptions just to have them changed/modified/clarified at this point. If your previous assumptions were all wrong then you get a bit ... testy... when the actual functions of the game are revealed. :P

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Absolutely.

 

No doubt the lack of timely information damages existing positions. I'd guess it's not enough to let me catch up any time soon, but it might change the balance between contemporaries quite a bit. I'd be upset too.

 

I just hope none of you are so upset that you decide to start over in my neighborhood. :pirate2: Give a newbie a chance! :P

 

:D

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I'm a newbie with only 2 turns under my belt so I'm a little hesitant to join this conversation, but it seems that what makes sense is a somewhat subjective thing.

 

If we assume that communication through a WP is instantaneous and not restricted by needing a warp bubble then it makes sense that fire control and an Admiral would be able react just as if they were on this side of the WP, even though they are far away.

 

Of course if the energy of the communication can travel the WP then why can't the energy of a weapon? Well, maybe communications don't even travel through WPs. After all, diplomatic traffic doesn't require that you even know where the other empire is, much less have a chain of WPs mapped between you (At least I think that's true). Maybe all communication is instantaneous and done outside of WPs?

 

The F&Ds are a little harder to explain, but maybe once in 'warp space' they can ride the warp bubble of the fleet, and since they're so small they can fit through the warp point with the first warp bubble through? I'm sure there's some clever explanation for it that would fit.

 

Ultimately, our imaginations flavor how we perceive the universe, and how we think it should work, but only the GMs perception is the correct one. We have to slowly meld our perception to theirs. Sorry, that sounded a little preachy, which wasn't my intent at all (grovelling at the feet of the masters hoping to catch a crumb). I just hoped to offer a different perspective.

 

 

Well said. Perhaps there are multiple ways of looking at things. Now, time to plan for the current reality and hope it does not change! (But change always happens.)

 

Octus Imperium

 

(Race is hereby ordered to take up the homo sapien past time of yoga to enhance flexibility. All researchers will spend at least 10% of their work time in such activities.) :P

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Not meaning to stir the pot or add more gas to the fire but what other factors that affect combat are calculated at the fleet level? We know fire control, fighters, and drones at least are. Perhaps point defense? Penetration aids/ECM packages?

 

Needless to say the combat primer will be interesting reading.

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When all is said and done, I DO trust Russ/Pete to consider and develop the rules of the game. That being said though, we MUST have a thorough, accurate and meaningful set of rules to play by. Many have even volunteered to expedite this process (with no inherent advantage since this is handling information that will be made public regardless) but been politely told no.

 

I fear this situation will get worse since it would seem more likely that RTG's workload will grow, not shrink as we move forward. With higher techs being introduced with each passing turn, things will reach critical mass very shortly if the rules are not updated.

 

I know RTG certainly does not want to see a loss of players and I know most of us dont want to lose out on our significant financial and emotional investment in the game. But things will only deteriorate more if this does not become priority one ASAP. Personally, I think it is critical enough to skip a processing turn over so that RTG has the time to get this documentation completed (if that is even enough time?). Don't get me wrong, I look forward to my turns every other week as much as anyone. but what other *viable* solution exists if RTG cannot or will not accept player assistance?

 

Strategy and Tactics are ultimately the province of the player, not the GM's. And we all understand RTG's desire to keep the numbers obscured to prevent the game watering down to a number crunch (I like this personally) HOWEVER.. a player must be able to make decisions based upon available and fundamentally accurate information of a mechanical nature. Without this, we are counting on things being intuitive to function, or even outright guessing, making assumptions, etc...

 

I have the utmost respect for, and confidence in Pete and Russ. I am also willing to lend assistance in any way I can to help expedite getting the game documentation completed and available. I am realllllllllly hoping nothing ever happens that damages the future of this game.

 

Mark

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I have no problems with the conceptual paradox that WKE points out. I envision that the fighters/drones are small enough to fit within the first vessels warp bubble (or something like that)

 

I am still not convinced that the revelation of how drones/fighters launch through on the first pulse dramtically alters the strategy of this game. I do see where it affects the decision-making process, though. Sorry guys - I've run a few numbers....if you weren't expecting Drones you are doomed faster than the old presumption.....if you were anticipating drones, the fighers/drones die faster. All in all - those who didn't prepare for drone assaults are at a disadvantage under the new revelation (but were hosed ANYWAY if they didn't brace for D/F assaults... :alien2: ) But still - yes - it would have been nice to know about that!

 

The 85 page document I amassed and sent to a few people for editing comments, has a lot of information. I am simply too busy to index it (or add the most recent space combat information we've obtained since New Years) but if you want to read it, send me a PM and I'll glad you send you a copy. My efforts to consolidate board tidbits are by no means a replacement for the upcoming update for the Naval Primer.

 

I know I'll sound like a RTG fanbois when I say this....but.....the information on space combat is already out there. Its been posted on these boards and through the Naval Combat Primer. Is the system evolving? Yes. Is it complete? Of course not. Are we learning something new each time? That won't change. Luckily we've had some volunteer-players to help us learn about space combat.

 

But do we have enough information currently to make wise strategic choices?

 

Yes we do :cheers:

 

I expect there to be tweeks...and don't forget....no 'one' strategy guarantees you victory in this game. I think more than a dozen of us, including RTG, have said this to ad nauseum: it is all about matchups.

 

With all of that said, I can understand the frustration of those who still feel they are completely in the dark when it comes to space combat. There is a lightswitch in there...and yes...you have to make some tough choices.

 

No matter how much Pete and Russ choose to reveal about space combat in this game, you still run the risk of building the wrong weapon or defense type and getting mopped out of your region of the galaxy. :D

 

No matter how much we press RTG - we still have to guess what we are up against.....just like us Humans might have to do in the future....we make alien contact....we have no clue what kind of technology they have....what do we do? Can our world leaders call up the Intergalactic GM of Alien Warfare and ask?

 

Happy hunting....or hiding....or guessing...or building troops (we all know that one person who mocks space combat 'Bah! Bring 'em to the ground!').....or plowing through with billions of tons of Mk I technology that matches up perfectly against the brain-blobs specialized defenses....or amassing hundreds of screen vessels in the time being until we develop stronger weapons/fire control/defenses etc :cheers:

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i'd be willing to skip a turn cycle so that pete and russ can organize everything more... resources that help play the game are too scattered. i'd like to see everything in one single location with all the up to date and concise info.

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i'd be willing to skip a turn cycle so that pete and russ can organize everything more... resources that help play the game are too scattered. i'd like to see everything in one single location with all the up to date and concise info.

 

I would reluctantly agree to a cycle being skipped if the output was assured. However, I think this would be an economic disadvantage to RTG, since they are deferring revenue for a week. While PBM and PBEM is know to have generated small fortunes for individuals, that only occurs if they started with a LARGE fortune. So skipping a cycle is not nearly as difficult for players as it would be for the moderators/owners!

 

However, if a week's revenue delay/loss would prevent current player attrition and (even better) encourage NEW players to join with more current rules and supporting material, a week may be a very worthwhile investment for RTG. Only they can decide, since they have balance sheet and cash flow statements.

 

Octus

 

(When will Friday night get here?!?)

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I would gladly provide the board consolidated information with anyone. I've sent out about 5 copies already today.

 

The only thing missing are some of the turn update messages...I believe Crossraods posted that somewhere here.

 

Anyway -

 

I would certainly prefer to keep turns rolling. I don't see a crisis here. :cheers:

 

Or should I?.... :D:alien2:

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