The Disappearing Colony Ship

[EEOC]

only done ice once. never researched the others (I can but have not)

 

did not get new resources. not sure if tou can.

 

1 ICE I think takes 5000 rare herbs (its been 2 years since I built ICE) which is 50000 raw. 10k is

500,000,000 raw resources which is a huge drain.

 

ice goes off in resource production which is before the ICs build. you BI ICE and next turn load it into a freighter.

[Locklyn]

What I think many of the older players find annoying is the fact that initially when the DCS were discussed the impression was that after three DCS or slightly more you'd have a heavy drop off in yields given since that was also heavily implied in the INST text. Seems we were all wrong and should have built us a couple of 100 of DCS instead of colonising. Basically don't believe what it says in INST and ANZ texts?

 

*sigh*

 

/Locklyn

[ali-t-akua]

What I think many of the older players find annoying is the fact that initially when the DCS were discussed the impression was that after three DCS or slightly more you'd have a heavy drop off in yields given since that was also heavily implied in the INST text. Seems we were all wrong and should have built us a couple of 100 of DCS instead of colonising. Basically don't believe what it says in INST and ANZ texts?

 

*sigh*

 

/Locklyn

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Locklyn, I have to agree. Before this message thread I thought of DCS as enhancing and nice to have rather than critical to an empire's survival. In any event, now that this information is out there I hope that Pete does not decide that the way DCS work is unbalancing to the game and substantially weaken this Installation as I personally am making changes in my research strategy this turn to address this. (I have some SRPs remaining from the Christmas gift.)

[Clan Elder 'Keen]

What I think many of the older players find annoying is the fact that initially when the DCS were discussed the impression was that after three DCS or slightly more you'd have a heavy drop off in yields given since that was also heavily implied in the INST text. Seems we were all wrong and should have built us a couple of 100 of DCS instead of colonising. Basically don't believe what it says in INST and ANZ texts?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

My issue with this is that there are really less viable choices than what may first appear. There is no longer an apparent equitity in pursuing different paths.

 

The empire who invested heavily in colonizing traits and spend hundreds upon hundred of orders doing GEO/CSV/PMAPs and setting up colony routes can't keep up with a massive DCS strategy. Nor can the warmonger looking for a quick start out of the gates using SRPs and a queue devoted to military production looking to conquer a few neighbors early on. Or even both combined... a colonizer who has a half dozen subjugations is still no where near what obscene yields from long-duration DCS will provide.

 

So while there may be undiscovered techs that are more effective than DSC, the point which I think most players will agree is that over the course of the first hundred turns there is only one BEST answer, and it is clearly much more effective by orders of magnitude. And most are only just realizing they haven't been pursuing it due to believing the ANZ text! Unfortunately we all better get onboard with this strategy now or we will be left farther and farther behind. (I wonder how many SRP, EB and CON orders are being rewritten right now.)

 

As an aside, with all due respect, I'm also not buying Pete's response indicating this is a good reason to foster alliances. Let's not forget the alliances can and will be pursuing this same strat, or on the other hand, what is stopping the guy with 15000 iron potential from making a few friends? This strikes me as a way of trying to shift the onus to the political venue (player responsibility) to compensate for a economy game balance issue.

[WKE235]

True. I would never had thought RTG would do something like this. Take Research, on which the non-linear application of more slots is very severe. Or take all the items where only one per world or system is valuable (though you can always build as many as you want of course). Or maybe all the items that provide benefits per 100 people, but again the benefits start dropping as you build more. Nothing in the history of the game would have indicated that Deep Core Surveyors would be any different. Yet here we are.

 

As for unbalancing the game, well, the damage is done. There are already players out there with huge resource levels building monster ships. I’m sure everyone in the universe who read this thread will start playing in the same way, building huge numbers of DCS’s, and experimenting with ICE and other methods. Eventually they (and the allies they work with) will all eventually have 10 to 20K yields of resources on the home worlds. Everyone else is just plain out of luck, and will be quickly and cleanly wiped off the mapped.

 

Colonization is basically dead. Oh sure, you may want one colony on a nearby world, to mine for items not on the homeworld. For example my HW lacks radioactives, light metals, and petrochemicals. If I could colonize a world with those items, and start building DCS’s there, then I’d be in resource heaven. Still, advanced strip mining provides for lots of RAW to feed the industrial maw. And with all the other resources of key concern on my HW growing nicely due to DCS’s, Raw Resources for these missing items would do nicely for quite some time. Yep, one colony is all I really need (unless you consider another players HW a colony .. in which case more is better?).

 

And as for using ICE-2 to increase yields, well that is pretty cheap. 1000 Rare Elements for 1 ton of ICE. Anyone could easily produce 500 tons of ICE per turn. Sure there would be no massive shifts like with EEOC leaving 20,000 tons around. But if you had 20-30 DCS’s running, 500 tons of ICE per turn would be pretty low risk, and would give nice increases in addition to the DCS’s. And if the ICE happened to eliminate a few pesky 10, 20, 30 size resources on your HW, even better! Less of those pesky resources forces the DCS’s to randomly concentrate on the remaining, giving you even faster increases in the other resources.

[rotor911]

True.  I would never had thought RTG would do something like this.  Take Research, on which the non-linear application of more slots is very severe.  Or take all the items where only one per world or system is valuable (though you can always build as many as you want of course).  Or maybe all the items that provide benefits per 100 people, but again the benefits start dropping as you build more. Nothing in the history of the game would have indicated that Deep Core Surveyors would be any different.  Yet here we are. 

 

As for unbalancing the game, well, the damage is done.  There are already players out there with huge resource levels building monster ships.  I’m sure everyone in the universe who read this thread will start playing in the same way, building huge numbers of DCS’s, and experimenting with ICE and other methods.  Eventually they (and the allies they work with) will all eventually have 10 to 20K yields of resources on the home worlds.  Everyone else is just plain out of luck, and will be quickly and cleanly wiped off the mapped.

 

Colonization is basically dead.  Oh sure, you may want one colony on a nearby world, to mine for items not on the homeworld.  For example my HW lacks radioactives, light metals, and petrochemicals.  If I could colonize a world with those items, and start building DCS’s there, then I’d be in resource heaven.  Still, advanced strip mining provides for lots of RAW to feed the industrial maw.  And with all the other resources of key concern on my HW growing nicely due to DCS’s, Raw Resources for these missing items would do nicely for quite some time.  Yep, one colony is all I really need (unless you consider another players HW a colony .. in which case more is better?).   

 

And as for using ICE-2 to increase yields, well that is pretty cheap.  1000 Rare Elements for 1 ton of ICE.  Anyone could easily produce 500 tons of ICE per turn.  Sure there would be no massive shifts like with EEOC leaving 20,000 tons around.  But if you had 20-30 DCS’s running, 500 tons of ICE per turn would be pretty low risk, and would give nice increases in addition to the DCS’s.  And if the ICE happened to eliminate a few pesky 10, 20, 30 size resources on your HW, even better!  Less of those pesky resources forces the DCS’s to randomly concentrate on the remaining, giving you even faster increases in the other resources.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I feel really bad about these news myself. Colonising was an important part of the game for me and it looks basically dead. Could someone be kind enough the share the path of DCS and ICE in case I decide to pursue despite this?

[EEOC]

Not sure what to say. We just did our turns as a little turtle and have been enjoying ourselves.

[RTGRuss]

Given the danger I think I probably should expand on the notes for ICE (we'll expand the ANZs as well) before the CW on its use swings too far in one direction...

 

"...your Science Council reiterates that the use of ICE is potentially dangerous and use on the homeworld would be considered exceedingly risky. ICE usage, following tests and reports from alien councils, is thought to have the potential for increasing resource yields as well as the potential for damaging or even destroying resource yields (depending on circumstance and luck). There is no known way to increase a resource yield where none currently exists and ICE is so unpredictable that there is no known way of predicting what yields will be enhanced or damaged/destroyed. Careful analysis of the risk vs reward would seem in order. Quantity seems to be a factor in the degree of success although it also seems to be a factor in the degree of failure.

 

The Council stresses, however, that ICE is extremely volatile and there is always a small chance of a catastrophic chain reaction that would be uncontrollable and would lead to total destruction of the body where the ICE was released. This risk is thought to be very small but is present whenever ICE is used (quantity is not thought to be a major factor - even a small amount could lead to a disaster and the risk does not seem to go up as the quantity being employed increases).

 

Accordingly, the Council recommends that ICE engineering projects should be confined to uninhabited worlds, moons and asteroid fields of currently limited value. In this way a catastrophic loss of control is confined to potentially useful real estate rather than a concurrent total loss of valuable real estate, life and infrastructure. The Council cannot, in good conscience, recommend use on the homeworld under any but the most dire of situations."

 

Note that there may, as with most tech advances, be something else out there that your scientists are aware of that is not common knowledge. An alternate path or a method for addressing the shortcomings of an earlier technology is always a possibility and if your scientists are aware of such then use that knowledge as you see fit...

 

 

Russ

[rotor911]

Given the danger I think I probably should expand on the notes for ICE (we'll expand the ANZs as well) before the CW on its use swings too far in one direction...

 

"...your Science Council reiterates that the use of ICE is potentially dangerous and use on the homeworld would be considered exceedingly risky.  ICE usage, following tests and reports from alien councils, is thought to have the potential for increasing resource yields as well as the potential for damaging or even destroying resource yields (depending on circumstance and luck).  There is no known way to increase a resource yield where none currently exists and ICE is so unpredictable that there is no known way of predicting what yields will be enhanced or damaged/destroyed.  Careful analysis of the risk vs reward would seem in order.  Quantity seems to be a factor in the degree of success although it also seems to be a factor in the degree of failure. 

 

The Council stresses, however, that ICE is extremely volatile and there is always a small chance of a catastrophic chain reaction that would be uncontrollable and would lead to total destruction of the body where the ICE was released.  This risk is thought to be very small but is present whenever ICE is used (quantity is not thought to be a major factor - even a small amount could lead to a disaster and the risk does not seem to go up as the quantity being employed increases). 

 

Accordingly, the Council recommends that ICE engineering projects should be confined to uninhabited worlds, moons and asteroid fields of currently limited value.  In this way a catastrophic loss of control is confined to potentially useful real estate rather than a concurrent total loss of valuable real estate, life and infrastructure.  The Council cannot, in good conscience, recommend use on the homeworld under any but the most dire of situations."

 

Note that there may, as with most tech advances, be something else out there that your scientists are aware of that is not common knowledge.  An alternate path or a method for addressing the shortcomings of an earlier technology is always a possibility and if your scientists are aware of such then use that knowledge as you see fit...

 

 

Russ

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I thought that castrophic events were not implanted in the game ??? They are when ICE are concerned??

[RTGRuss]

I thought that castrophic events were not implanted in the game ??? They are when ICE are concerned??

 

A catastrophic event is possible with ICE which is considered a high-risk/reward item that you can either choose to risk using or not. There are some items/installations that are so commonly used and/or of such limited benefit that a true 'catastrophic' event wouldn't be justified so we don't implement catastrophic events for them although that had been a consideration in the beginning.

 

Russ

[ali-t-akua]

Not sure what to say. We just did our turns as a little turtle and have been enjoying ourselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

EEOC, I read your post as though you feel like you did something wrong. I don't view it that way. I see it as you took advantage of a feature of the game and carried it to its logical extreme. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

For myself, I have rewritten my SRP order for this turn and changed its focus in terms of where I was going to spend my Christmas SRPs. My only regret is that the ANZ was not clearer but this is the reality of the game and I will accept it and move on. That is why I said I hope that Pete does not change the way these systems work since I plan to spend considerable resources to take advantage myself.

[EEOC]

I have heard of ICE destroying Homeworld yield and have spoken with a player who lost a good colony.

 

DCS take power. Lots of it. 4 DCS take 1M CM which could be used to do something else. I got lucky with a Hydro hit.

[Prospective]

Locklyn,

 

I agree. From reading responses to a post I put up about DCS's a number of months ago, I was considering developing/deploying them. However, there were responses to my original post that said that more than a few were a waste as the output dropped off rather rapidly. However, now it appears that this is an untrue and that the ANZ was "somewhat misleading" and that the benefits of multiple DCS's don't drop off quite as fast as was thought. This is disappointing considering I was headed down that direction. But oh well, I will head there ASAP. Let's hope that it doesn't get "updated" to make the ANZ accurate, but rather the ANZ gets updated to reflect the current reality on how it operates.

 

EEOC,

 

Don't feel bad about this. You lucked out with Hydroelectric of 19,000+ (for those who have not calculated it, provides 380,000+ power for ONE Hydroelectric Power Plant!!!). As DCS's are power hogs, the strategy you employed makes perfect sense. Oh, could you please verify. Did you employ 20,000 tons of ICE or 20,000,000 tons of ICE, it was not clear (especially after you said it took 5 full turns of industrial output).

 

C.E.X.,

 

I agree that colonization is dead (for me at least and probably for many others). I will continue to use my existing equipment, but do not plan on building more. I mean, how much does it cost to put up say 400 Colony Berthings, plus engines and cargo bays to get a decent amount of pops/turn on a colony? Add fuel tanks and NTWD's if you plan to move out of your system and it gets REAL expensive. Now there is a real nice alternative. Take the resources you would have spent on col berths, engines, fuel tanks, etc and allocate them to building power plants and DCS's. This has many benefits... first and foremost is that you are not vulnerable to having supply lines interfered with in a conflict. Next is the fact that you no longer need to do GEO's or CSV's or ORB's and waste real world $$ trying to find a decent colony. Just stay at home and concentrate on your HW development (turtle strategy).

 

 

 

As far as ICE goes... I am more confused now. Russ stated "There is no known way to increase a resource yield where none currently exists". To me this means that if you have no Gemstone Yield on a planet (for example), then using ICE will never create a Gemstone Yield. However, I believe that I read on other posts that ICE had "generated" a nonexistant yield. I guess that I am going to make the assumption that ICE can only enhance existing yields (either positively or negatively) and that potentially you could destroy an entire planet (Cool!!!).

[WKE235]

Here's the information on the tech paths for any who want or need them

 

ICE-1

Resource

Requires 3rd Generation Industrial Science, 3rd Generation Planetary Science

Uses 1000 Rare Elements to produce 1 ton of ICE-1

Special Weapons Strength: Poor

ICE, or Instant Coalescing Embrace, is a highly unstable material used to alter the molecular structure of other objects. Some call the effect 'freezing' but no thermal exchange takes place. The very fabric of atomic bonding seems to be changed, resulting in sometimes weird and often quite unpredictable results. In truth, your scientists have stumbled across something that they do not truly understand. They do know that if deployed on a planet, ICE-1 has a chance of altering the geological nature of the area. Sometimes a new material is formed, while other times a perfectly good vein of precious metals or other yield is ruined. Proximity to a gravitational field seems to drive the reaction. To use, simply construct ICE-1 and leave it in stockpile. On the following turn, just prior to mining and industrial production, stockpiled ICE-1 will react in what can only be described as a totally unpredictable way. To prevent the reaction, load the ICE-1 onto a fleet and move it well away from any planetary body (a Warp Point is safe). Leaving it in orbit is thought to be inadvisable. Use on your homeworld is considered exceedingly risky. Your scientists have no idea what might happen if ICE-1 is carried through a Warp Point. There may well be military uses, but your scientists fear what might happen if they experiment too much.

 

Deep Core Surveyor

Installation

Requires 3rd Generation Planetary Engineeering; 1st Generation Terraforming

Uses 250,000 Advanced Construction Materials to construct

Consumes 100,000 Power per turn

Deep Core Surveyors are deep tunneling units that search the core of a planet for additional resources. They operate autonomously and may discover new veins of any of a variety of valuable resources. Construction of multiple Deep Core Surveyors can be quite useful, but the benefits of building more than one drop off in a nonlinear fashion. Deep Core Surveyor are energy hogs, consuming an impressive 100,000 Power per turn.

 

Antimatter Power Complex

Installation

Requires 5th Generation Civil Engineering; Advanced Processed Radioactives

Uses 500,000 Construction Materials; 1 Population to build

Produces 25,000 Power

Consumes: Radioactive Elements, 100

Converts 100 Radioactive Elements into Power. Consumes no Power. Very low pollution. Low risk of cataclysmic disaster.

 

 

3rd Generation Industrial Science

Horizon Technology

Requires 2nd Generation Industrial Science, 3rd Generation Computer Systems, 2nd Generation Civil Administration

Result: Increase Industrial output by 30% for all existing Industrial Complexes

Industrial Science represents general across-the-board improvements in industrial technology. Development of 3rd Generation Industrial Science results in an increased efficiency in the output of all of your Industrial Complexes, no matter how primitive or advanced they might be because of their basic type. This increased efficiency is estimated to be at about thirty per cent over the standard production output of your industrial Installations.

 

Improved Industrial Complex

Installation

Requires 1st Generation Cybernetics, 3rd Generation Civil Engineering

Uses 500 Improved Construction Materials to build

Build capacity of 750 (as opposed to 250 for standard IC)

Converts Items into other Items. Resources such as Iron can be refined into Steel, or multiple Items can be assembled to form superior Items. Improved Industrial Complexes can assemble 750 tons of materials per turn into final products, making use of robotics and some hybrid robotic life forms to improve industrial output.

[WKE235]

As an aside, with all due respect, I'm also not buying Pete's response indicating this is a good reason to foster alliances.  Let's not forget the alliances can and will be pursuing this same strat, or on the other hand, what is stopping the guy with 15000 iron potential from making a few friends?  This strikes me as a way of trying to shift the onus to the political venue (player responsibility) to compensate for a economy game balance issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Lets be serious. Someone takes a gamble with ICE and gets a huge increase in Iron with no serious consequences, and now has Iron in the 10,000 range. Even if they build no more iron mines, their total Iron output will have increased by 20 to 30 times their previous level. Being able to produce 25,000,000 Iron per turn with no need for Raw use frees up huge amounts of industrial capacity for use on other elements. An alliance cannot compete with that level of production.

 

Am I the only one here who feels like a major random chance item has been tossed into what was a game of strategy and planning (with a little random stuff here and there for excitement)? Basically we all know now that some people have gambled big on ICE, and won really big. They have advantages over all of us that now requires we take the same gamble to have a reasonable chance to compete. And if we gamble and fail (or the planet implodes), it's tough luck, care to try another empire. Four+ years of play to get to the point that you have to risk it all on a couple of production orders. Not cool at all.