DWillard Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 OK, I don't have time to lay everything out right now (must get turns done) but I want to get this topic started. The discussion has already started in another thread but it needs it's own. The ability to transfer your pop to another player's pop center is, as admitted by Pete, a loophole . As such, it needs to be closed, period. The potential for abuse and further exploit is too great. Pete already has ideas, plans, tech, etc in the game to make trade viable. This was not an intended one and should be closed ASAP. For those of you who have been using or planning on using this loophole, I know it will suck for Pete to close it but it needs to be closed before it gets widespread. If this disrupts your plans, I'm sorry, but you were working off of info that was not publically known (in the rules, posted on the boards when it was discovered, officially sanctioned, etc). My intention is not to make accusations. I'm only saying that doing the right thing supercedes the fact that some of you might get a wrench thrown into your plans. For those of you not up to speed on this loophole, here's the deal. Player A puts a colony beacon on player B's homeworld. After transportation centers are built, Player B transfers as much pop and CM to player A as he wants. Player A then builds a bunch of Industrial Complexes, using player B's pop to run them. Player B ships in a bunch of components and Player A turns these into items (items that Player B does not have the tech needed to build himself) and ships them back to Player B. The reciprocal of this takes place on Player A's homeworld. Here is just one major concern with this loophole (and there are others as Shadow pointed out in the other thread): It allows players to circumvent the research limitations of their empire too easily. Yes, this will be a major reason (if not the only reason) to trade with other empires. The problem is, this is way too easy and is an unintended loophole. For the minuscule cost of a colony beacon and a transportation center, you get to "build" items that you have not invested the research in. No convoy routes, no freighters, no convoy escorts, no attrition. Essentially no investment whatsoever. Only profit. This should not sit well with anyone, especailly the roleplayers and realists. Stop and think about it. Why should any player be allowed to just hand over large segements of his population with no penalties involved. If we are able to do this, we might as well be able to trade research ability between empires. This loophole makes it almost as easy. For excellent reasons, we are not allowed to trade research ability and I see this loophole as a way around that. I also see this as an easy way around buying the expensive research modifiers during racial design. Anything in the game like this is a major blow to those who bought the higher bonuses. This absolutely is not fair and the hole should be closed now. Again, I know we will be able to trade items between empires but establishing trade should require some type of investment. Allowing it to be this easy is an outrage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted July 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Just a quick thought. It will be a sad day for this game if it turns into nothing but a race to see who can exploit loopholes the best and the quickest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Shut it down now. Laserwolf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Hm, rather strong reaction. But I think you are overreacting, and your alarmist warnings about breaking the tech system are unwarrented. Even beyond the "loophole" of transfering pop to another players colony, trade via homesystem colonizing will remain quite feasible. It will simply require initially moving more of your own colonists to the site. There are already technologies to reduce attrition, and your partners Improved Construction Materials should be there in abundance. And if a different in-system planet is used instead of the homeworld to further reduce attrition, the homesystem partner will need to provide a cargo moving fleet to exchange resources for product, instead of a Transport Center. The vision of large trade convoys moving across the galaxy will not come to fruition where people are willing to trust another player to co-develop homesystem accomodations for long-term trading. If that level of trust is not present, then the alternative is the empty beacon "drop box" which requires more transportation but no colonists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Well the "Loophole' for trading pop should be shut down.... BUT....if two or more players manage to bumb into one another and then continue to map out the systems/WPs to each others HW, then set up a "Colony Beacon" on each other's HW...Then the pop for that Alien Colony on your HW should come from the Alien's pop. Now if that hosting HW were to transfer the CMs need to build everything else... That is fine and totally acceptable. happy happy joy joy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted July 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Sorry Clan Elder, But you are extremely naive to think that this won't be abused or isn't a major shortcut around the 25 research centers. As you stated yourself, there is cost involved in establishing trade. This loophole lets you do it for free. Just because you don't think anyone will trust eachother enough to do it, doesn't mean that it isn't wrong or that it wont happen or that it isn't already happening. There is more at stake here than just the details of this example and this loophole. Think of the bigger picture and the consequences of letting something "little" like this get out of hand. If this is overreaction, then we need more of it to protect the interity of this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted July 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Well put T'Aleen. That is exactly right. Set up all the colonies you want on another players homeworld but the pop should be your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted July 30, 2003 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Clan Elder 'Keen, The "naive" remark was not meant as an insult and may have come arcross a bit harsh. I'm only saying there must be some things you have not considered, because this is a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Also just think of having multiple empirers all setting up pop centers on each other's HW and then the hosting HW just simply transfers all the needed stuff to what ever Alien Pop center on their HW and they build the desired Tech and transfer it back the following turn to the HW's Prime Pop...thus begins awesome trade and the birth of collective community! Brought to you by the GSL... Tyean Corrella, First Citizen of the T'Aleen Empire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Unrealistic? I'm sorry, but you are obviously not involved in any type of business operations. The building of plants in other countries to be run by the workers in those countries along with the licensing out the manufacture of some item is a very common practice. It all comes down to economics. Think of it in business terms... I could build the plant here in the US where I did all the research and own the patents. Then I have to package and ship everything around the world. Or, I can build a plant in Chad, staff it with cheap labor (minimal training required for those with key roles in the manufacturing process), and build the item there saving on transportation costs (among others!). Lets use an example that involves two technically advanced countries. Lets say we researchd and develop the new Ultium chip which due to one time tech improvements has 10 times the speed of previous chips (a one time boost). I could produce everthing in the US and package it and ship it around the world. OR, knowing I have high demand in Japan and the EU, I build plants in each location .. bring in workers from Japan and the EU ... and manufacture the chip right there! This cuts out the transportation time for manufactured goods, I still own the knowledge / patent for the item, but I satisfy the demand in the places that want it. This is as real as it gets. It is NOT a loophole, but a true representation of the way the universe works. Note -- after 22 turns I have run into one other player just last turn. So I am defending this only from the perspective of I believe this is realistic. Pete could do something in the code to stop this if he decides it unbalances the game. But I fail to understand this alarmist view that it would do so. It still does NOT allow the trading of research. You still have to coordinate all actions with your ally to cotinue to manufacture the desired item (transport in materials, get back goods). If your relations with your ally sours, bye-bye item. Even if you took the Pop center, you cannot manufacture the item yourself (what you can build in a Pop Center is based on WHO owns it). They ONLY thing this does is speed up the trading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Sorry Clan Elder, But you are extremely naive to think that this won't be abused or isn't a major shortcut around the 25 research centers. As you stated yourself, there is cost involved in establishing trade. This loophole lets you do it for free. Just because you don't think anyone will trust eachother enough to do it, doesn't mean that it isn't wrong or that it wont happen or that it isn't already happening. There is more at stake here than just the details of this example and this loophole. Think of the bigger picture and the consequences of letting something "little" like this get out of hand. If this is overreaction, then we need more of it to protect the interity of this game. Cosettling homeworlds/systems is well within the bounds of the rules and scope of this game. While I have no real issue with removing the ability ("loophole") to do so with some other alien population instead of your own colonists, the end result with either method is exactly the same in regards to technology. Working jointly with another empire will provide benefits that a single empire will not enjoy. Items will be shared between empires, and the effectiveness of that exchange will depend on which particular technologies are choosen to be researched and traded. Without the "loophole" it simply means building a couple hundred more colony berthings dedicated to this purpose. That is an appropriate expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octagon999 Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Establishing legit colonies on another players HW and shipping in population is perfectly fine and legal. Build the berths and ship them in. Transferring population should NOT be. As was said below, this is not a matter of realism, but play balance. Thanks for alerting us, Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
President Guztov Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Your Loophole theory seems to be based on allowing one empire to transfer POP to another. I dont see that even though Im about to do it. Even if i wasnt allowed to transfer POP. I would still be allowed to transfer everything else right? All we are talking about here in essence is TIME. In time my ally would be able to transfer enough of his own pop to make the colony viable and thriving. Whats to stop us from then buidling finsihed goods the other cannot build and transferring them then? Nothing that i can see unless Pete closes this 'loophole' completely and disallows any transfers at all. If you can meet up with another player and have enough trust in them to make a deal that would have both of you follow differnt paths of the tech tree and then both benefit when you eventually trade those techs then more power to you. Unless told otherwise by the powers that be I and my ally will continue to exploit this ability and I will be more then happy to allow others to 'exploit' it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lotix1417 Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 hmmmm... Oddly enough, I'm neutral on this topic, heh. Being in a position to fully exploit this issue, to the maximum extent of the loophole, naturally I'd support population morphing from one race to another with ease. However, the purist in me says that this is definitely a loophole. It is definitely a huge advantage for those of us lucky enough to have found 100% reliable allies ...and woe to those who are caught alone before linking up heh heh heh In effect this allows one to "turn" population into another race... without the use of genetics.... probably not something that was intended... I don't really think this is an issue of realism as much as game balance, and I can fully understand why those who see this as unbalancing do not like it. If we want to talk realism, then techs would simply be transferrable, making the group with the largest group membership having an incredible bonus. -Lotix1417 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted July 30, 2003 Report Share Posted July 30, 2003 Before I get too excited about it I would like to here if Pete has made a determination as to whether he thinks this is an issue or not. I personnaly think this will break the game and should not be allowed. Any colonies already set up should be dismantled. This is much more of a problem than the early warp point surveys that some got or the ability to transport colonists in cargo holds. WE all know about it now so lets get some clarification so we ALL will be completely appraised of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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