The Boo Consulate Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 1) DW:Insisting that the only way to lay claim to a system is to post it on this board is just another one of these arbitrary requirements the GSL is trying to get everyone to adhere to. And because they know that not everone will do it, it's another easy justification for war, just as you have stated. BC:You are greatly mistaken. It is a Policy of the Boo and not the GSL to encourage and persuade others to act in a civilized and reasonable way regarding those systems they wish to claim as their territory. One does not have to publish them on the varrious game fora. IF you wish you can post ships at the points of entry into your territory. Be creative, we assume your race is capable of this faculty. Our concern is not with how one deliniates territory, but that it is done in a way that gives others reasonable notice that it belongs to you BEFORE you shot at them. If a spacefarer is given fair and resonable notice to avoid a system, then they can alter their course before warping into one of your systems. If they do not alter their course then we believe you would be in your rights to use force against them. As stated before, the Boo do not want to be shot. If you tell us--in some unequivocal way other than violence--that you do not desire us to enter your territory we will not so enter. If, however, a race shots us and say, "Oh, by the way, keep out," we will view that as a valid causus belli against that race. Again. This is the policy of the Boo Consultatum only. Others may have similar policies, but we do not sing for them. 2) DW:If you still see this as a neutral area of space that is community property then consider this: I'm sure Locklyn has invested a huge amount of time, money, and resources in his EXPL efforts. I'm also sure that he is exploring in systems that are more than two systems out. By your reasoning, the info and items he gains from this "neutral" area should be available to all of the players in the game. The point is, if I invest my efforts into claiming a large area of space, I have the right to defend it and restrict travel through it as I see fit. If another empire or alliance wants to come along and take it all away from me... well, if they are bigger than me they will likely succeed. But it's not a very nice guy thing to do now, is it? BC: You are correct that the Boo regard neutral space as terra nullis and susceptible of use by all equally (OOC: Like the High Seas). It is no easy task to deliniate neutral space from sovereign territory. The GSL has an internal system for doing this, but in the Galactic Community as a whole no coherent system has evolved to aide us all in making the distinction. Our government's comments in these areas are a reflection of our duty to safeguard the vital interests of the Boo as well as an attempt to enter into dialogue with other spacefaring races in an effort to somehow collectively come to a set of reasonable rules that are generally acceptable to the majority of races. This is a long standing policy objective of our government. We are therefore more than happy to enter into multilateral negotiations with others to hammer out these issues in some reasonable and fair way. Again, this is a Boo position and not necessarily one of the GSL. Unless and until an intergalactic regime evolves, is established by treaty, or we negotiate bilateral exceptions it is the policy of the Boo to proceed under the assumption that systems not claimed (in some overt fashion) are neutral territory. We have already unequivocally stated that we regard freedom to navigate the spaceways in neutral territory as a fundemental right of all spacefaring races. As stated earlier, we shall generally recognize unilaterally the right of all spacefaring races to the sovereign territorial exclusivity of all systems within two jumps of their native system. Everything outside of that shall be presumed neutral unless and until some proof is put forward to show that a race has staked a genuine claim to a neutral planet or system. What is a genueine claim according to the Boo? This is what you really want to know. A genuine claim depends upon the circumstances of each unique case, but there are factors we, the Boo, will consider in deciding whether or not to recognize a claim. (One caveat. We are talking about de jure sovereignty here and the diplomatic recognition thereof, not de facto control or what a race subjectively and cryptically considers its own. Why limit our discussion thusly? Because we are talking about an interactive communiy of interests and in such a system, if all are to be free, then the subjective notions of one race can not trump the objective requirements for notice that others need in order to get along with one another in an orderly fashion. 1st Generation Social Science.) One factor is discovery. Discovery alone is insufficient by itself. Another is colonization. The Boo will accept a colonized planet as the sovereign territory of another race and we will refrain from entering the orbit of a sovereign world in neutral space as long as we are given notice that the planet is colonized. This colonization has to be more than just droping a beacon, otherwise the greedy can merely go around like so many Earth dogs peeing on every thing they see and yelling,"Mine! Mine!" Such is irrational, unfair, and frankly unrealistic. If one colonizes more than one world or builds garrisons at all the warp points of a system, then that might be worth recognizing as a valid claim to an entire star system in otherwise neutral space. These questions are as much political as they are legal. They are also informed by astro-geography. If a race has a colony in a system next to its other systems that may merit recognition from our government as a valid claim to an entire system, whereas if that same colony were separated by several non-sovereign systems we would be inclined to recognize only the planetary claim. There are probably many more reasons to recognize a sovereign claim, the point is merely that the presumption of terra nullis needs to be rebutted. That requires communication. One thing is for certain, it is the policy of the Boo Consultatum to infer nothing from the fact that we are being shot at other than that we are being attacked. Shooting at another race's spacecraft communicates only hostile intent and or poor disposition. It does not communicate a colorable claim to territorial sovereignty. 3) DW: OK, so now I'll get to my real gripe I have about the GSL. This little tiff with the NSI is only the beginning. There will be many similar situations to come. Some more clear cut, some more hazey. I know for a fact that there are some scoundrels in the GSL who will be looking to instigate fights knowing that they will have the backing of their huge alliance, no questions asked. (and I am in no way trying to imply that WKE is one of them). More and more, I fear, you will have to do things their way or else end up an enemy of the alliance as a whole. Already we are seeing that to ignore them, or to withhold information from them, or to not allow them into your territory, or to defend your territory as you see fit, or to not anounce your "claimed" systems to the galaxy can make you an instant enemy. If not an instant ememy, you are likely to be viewed as having evil intentions. I'm not saying that they will then all come after you, but they will have established their justification as to why it's now ok for them to "start" a war. This is not true for every single empire in the GSL but there are plenty of them just itching to fight and, like everyone else, are just looking for the right justification. So, the more rules they impose on the galaxy, the more potential areas for justification they will have. If this is what they want to do, then fine, but at least drop the "Good Guy" bit. If you are going to keep on with the "Good Guy" bit , then I hope as the game progesses we will see more impartiality and a more fair and clear philosophy concerning neutral empires, and more respect for the territory of neutral empires. BC: We are not at all impressed by your powers of prognostication. This is merely anti-GSL propaganda. It is rank speculation and demonstrative either of a desire to be unnecessarily provocative or of paranoia. There is no rational way to refute silliness. History will be the judge. None of our allies have forced any other spacefaring race to do anything. The GSL per se seldom if ever even engages in diplomacy. Broad accusations with no proof means nothing and contributes very little to discourse on these important issues. 4) DW: As it is now, as admitted by the GSL, each empire in the alliance is free to act as they wish but is more likely than not (as we have seen) to get the full backing of the alliance in times of conflict. Doesn't sound like a bunch of White Knights to me. BC: The GSL has admitted nothing on this issue, please get your facts straight. The Boo and others have said we are individually sovereign and that is just a fact. 5) DW: How the Heck is trying to sneek a scout in around the defended point accidental? How many accidental warps did WKE do? One, two, or three??? If it's more than one I would seriously doubt it was accidental. BC: Conjecture. Where is the evidence any of this happend? You do not know the warp matrix patern in that area and neither do we. 6) DW: And what are some of these "many" ways? All of the independant Empires and other alliances out here need to know so as not to impede the Boo from spreading across the galaxy and thereby be labled as hostile and legitimate targets for any GSL member. BC: This has been substantially addressed above. Again, this is the policy of the Boo. We sing only for ourselves. 7) DW: So far the only one acceptalbe to the Boo or the GSL is to publicly post, or better yet, give a list of your systems directly to the GSL. Have you no respect for the privacy and security of non GSL empires? BC: Again, this has already been addressed. We do not sing for the GSL, only for the Boo. We must respond, however, with a question of our own: Have you no respect for common decency? If you do not wish the maid to wake you put a "DO NOT DISTURB" sign on the outside door handle--for the sake of all that is good and civilized do not shoot the maid when she comes to change out your little soaps and towels if you have neglected to at least call the concierge and leave instructions that you be left alone. 8) DW: I would certainly think that the NSI made an "overt, verifiable, and justifiable claim to sovereign exclusivity". BC: We are finished with the Diocles Incident. 9) DW: It would certainly be a clear message to me that the territory in question has already been claimed. BC: What your race does is its business. If the Boo are fired upon we will not see it as a friendly gesture. Boo Consulate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 4)DW: As it is now, as admitted by the GSL, each empire in the alliance is free to act as they wish but is more likely than not (as we have seen) to get the full backing of the alliance in times of conflict. Doesn't sound like a bunch of White Knights to me. BC: The GSL has admitted nothing on this issue, please get your facts straight. The Boo and others have said we are individually sovereign and that is just a fact. Let me rephrase. As it is now, as admitted by many members of the GSL, each empire in the alliance is individually sovereign and is free to act as they wish but is more likely than not (as we have seen) to get the full backing of the individual members (no questions asked) in times of conflict. Doesn't sound like a bunch of White Knights to me. If I incorrectly interchange the term "GSL" with individual Empires it is because I have been intstructed many times from members of the GSL (T'Aleen, Lord Valwyn, Locklyn, etc.) that you are a group of like-minded players and are supposed to be the "Good Guys" in the Galaxy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 5)DW: How the Heck is trying to sneek a scout in around the defended point accidental? How many accidental warps did WKE do? One, two, or three??? If it's more than one I would seriously doubt it was accidental. BC: Conjecture. Where is the evidence any of this happend? You do not know the warp matrix patern in that area and neither do we. It's not conjecture. It was stated by WKE. Go back and read HIS accounts of the events and get your facts straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 6)DW: And what are some of these "many" ways? All of the independant Empires and other alliances out here need to know so as not to impede the Boo from spreading across the galaxy and thereby be labled as hostile and legitimate targets for any GSL member. BC: This has been substantially addressed above. Again, this is the policy of the Boo. We sing only for ourselves. So let me get this straight. To be at peace with or to get along with the Boo one has to either allow the Boo unrestricted travel throughout the galaxy or provide undisputed proof (either turn results or unrestricted access to all areas in question?) of home system, home world, colony worlds, size of colonies, names of interlinking systems, warp point numbers, warp point defense and composition, etc., etc., etc. Is this right or have I once again misinterpreted your meaning of proof? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Hmmm DWillard I have a question for you, have you actually talked to the player running the "NSI"? Have you seen his turn results? Do you know for a fact that this system is his HW or maybe just some system that he has ships parked at the WPs? Do you know what "Roleplaying" style he has chosen to play in this game? If you have not spoken directly to this said player, then you know nothing of what is/was/will be! You only have "guessing" by other uniformed players like yourselve trying to play politics and get what-ever point accross. Now reading your many posts, one has to wonder what your beef with the GSL is? What is your real political reason for doing this? You keep picking at the GSL and trying to find fault with anything, but never bother to say what you would do or how it could be done better. It is real easy to be crittical of others , I guess your perfect and everyone should march to the tune of your Goose-Step...hmmm??? Now as to my approach to system ownership, well I have set up "zones" of contact about my HW. For me they are "Core", "Inner", "Outer", and "Uncharted". I have different levels of "communication" for "Guests" depending on the Zone, but then this is only a T'Aleen Empire mode of opperation and not a GSL standard. Kumbayah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 6)DW: And what are some of these "many" ways? All of the independant Empires and other alliances out here need to know so as not to impede the Boo from spreading across the galaxy and thereby be labled as hostile and legitimate targets for any GSL member. BC: This has been substantially addressed above. Again, this is the policy of the Boo. We sing only for ourselves. So let me get this straight. To be at peace with or to get along with the Boo one has to either allow the Boo unrestricted travel throughout the galaxy or provide undisputed proof (either turn results or unrestricted access to all areas in question?) of home system, home world, colony worlds, size of colonies, names of interlinking systems, warp point numbers, warp point defense and composition, etc., etc., etc. Is this right or have I once again misinterpreted your meaning of proof? No. The Boo are in a technical state of peace with everyone. You are confusing acts of war with war. You are confounding what our government considers good proof of a claim of territoriality with our willingness to get along with others and negotiate boundries. We are being completely forthwright with everyone. More precisely, we expect to have , and will enforce our right to ,unfetered access to and through neutral space. Again, if a chunk of space isn't neutral we have no problem staying out. How can we know space has been fenced in or roped-off unless it is somehow communicated to us. Be reasonable. We are not about to restrict our exploration missions just because some social misfits shot at us. If a government enters into dialogue we will deal with that government diplomatically and in good faith. Otherwise space--the great and open expanse--is deemed free and open to all. How your government notifies other races of your territorial claims is your business--our concerm is that we are given notice before we are fired upon. Boo Consulate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 One factor is discovery. Discovery alone is insufficient by itself. Another is colonization. The Boo will accept a colonized planet as the sovereign territory of another race and we will refrain from entering the orbit of a sovereign world in neutral space as long as we are given notice that the planet is colonized. This colonization has to be more than just droping a beacon, otherwise the greedy can merely go around like so many Earth dogs peeing on every thing they see and yelling,"Mine! Mine!" Such is irrational, unfair, and frankly unrealistic. If one colonizes more than one world or builds garrisons at all the warp points of a system, then that might be worth recognizing as a valid claim to an entire star system in otherwise neutral space. These questions are as much political as they are legal. They are also informed by astro-geography. If a race has a colony in a system next to its other systems that may merit recognition from our government as a valid claim to an entire system, whereas if that same colony were separated by several non-sovereign systems we would be inclined to recognize only the planetary claim. ... So now you are creating rules about what can and can't be claimed by other empires? I strongly assert that... "If one colonizes more than one world or builds garrisons at all the warp points of a system, then that might be worth recognizing as a valid claim to an entire star system in otherwise neutral space." ...is much more than something "that might be worth recognizing". The system has been discovered, mapped, actively utilized, and defended. There is no doubt about the claim. If you or your allies continue with this approach to territoriality I am quite sure the result will be conflict with any number of interests. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Clan Elder 'Keen, Stop taking things out of context, what I get from what the Boo were saying is that just because someone sets op a pop beacon in a orbit with nothing else there doesn't mean 100% ownership. The way the T'Aleen look at it, if we found a beacon...we would start requesting contact from that player. As to system ownership, well the details of the whole situation need to be talked out between that other player and myself. I would hope that we could work out some kind of a working relationship and begin to explore many different options together in peace and friendship. Now for the T'Aleen we will never fire first when exploring, but if fired apon we will return fire for sure. Kumbayah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Clan Elder 'Keen, Stop taking things out of context, what I get from what the Boo were saying is that just because someone sets op a pop beacon in a orbit with nothing else there doesn't mean 100% ownership. Context? I have not taken anything out of context. His statement is quite clear: "If one colonizes more than one world or builds garrisons at all the warp points of a system, then that might be worth recognizing as a valid claim to an entire star system in otherwise neutral space." And even at that, this only might meet his threshold for sovereign territory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 As it is now, as admitted by many members of the GSL, each empire in the alliance is individually sovereign and is free to act as they wish but is more likely than not (as we have seen) to get the full backing of the individual members (no questions asked) in times of conflict. Doesn't sound like a bunch of White Knights to me. Wrong. GSL members are not simply "free to act as they wish." Our standards are broad in that they permit a variety of play styles. So the lines are drawn far out. But the lines are rules, not guidelines. A GSL member cannot initiate preemptive warfare with another race. They must be attacked first. If a GSL member appears to be manipulating circumstances to create the appearance of a pre-emptive strike by the other empire in order to justify a war, the other GSL members are not stupid and will see through it. In this case, the WARP appears to have been accidental. If WKE's future conduct suggests otherwise, then the GSL will change its position. If a situation presents a gray area as to who initiated hostilities, the GSL will internally decide whether mutual security is appropriate. If it isn't a gray area (e.g. the GSL member clearly attacks first or the non-GSL player clear attacks first), it's also an internal GSL decision, just an easier one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 The funny thing is that I was shot at by a GSL player. Of course I am not taking this as a blanket declaration of war and have opened dialog. What I find amazing is the reems of legalese that come out of the GSL defending this position. It would have been clear if WKE had said: "Hey I messed up and my commander jumped in. We can't contact the NSI but we will leave ASAP. If we can't we would like permission to send in an explorer to get us out" Instead we get pages and pages from multiple GSL players justifying the position, arguing about semantics, diction, the intent of another players, the meaning. Another amazing thing is that the GSL and Players can be mixed when things are good but when trouble arises everyone is seperate. Truely amazing and a clear example of why the GSL will fail (too democratric) against others who are actually alliances. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 The funny thing is that I was shot at by a GSL player. Of course I am not taking this as a blanket declaration of war and have opened dialog. What I find amazing is the reems of legalese that come out of the GSL defending this position. It would have been clear if WKE had said: "Hey I messed up and my commander jumped in. We can't contact the NSI but we will leave ASAP. If we can't we would like permission to send in an explorer to get us out" Instead we get pages and pages from multiple GSL players justifying the position, arguing about semantics, diction, the intent of another players, the meaning. Another amazing thing is that the GSL and Players can be mixed when things are good but when trouble arises everyone is seperate. Truely amazing and a clear example of why the GSL will fail (too democratric) against others who are actually alliances. Here we go again. Didn't I call you on this in the other thread already? You know very well that the GSL position that "fired on you" was dropped at the time. It had been dropped in early stages, and was still set to default encounter orders. Yet in all the times you've made this remark, you've never once pointed that out. If anyone on this board isn't aware of your personal grudge at this point, they're blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Methinks they doth protest too much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 One factor is discovery. Discovery alone is insufficient by itself. Another is colonization. The Boo will accept a colonized planet as the sovereign territory of another race and we will refrain from entering the orbit of a sovereign world in neutral space as long as we are given notice that the planet is colonized. This colonization has to be more than just droping a beacon, otherwise the greedy can merely go around like so many Earth dogs peeing on every thing they see and yelling,"Mine! Mine!" Such is irrational, unfair, and frankly unrealistic. If one colonizes more than one world or builds garrisons at all the warp points of a system, then that might be worth recognizing as a valid claim to an entire star system in otherwise neutral space. These questions are as much political as they are legal. They are also informed by astro-geography. If a race has a colony in a system next to its other systems that may merit recognition from our government as a valid claim to an entire system, whereas if that same colony were separated by several non-sovereign systems we would be inclined to recognize only the planetary claim. ... So now you are creating rules about what can and can't be claimed by other empires? I strongly assert that... "If one colonizes more than one world or builds garrisons at all the warp points of a system, then that might be worth recognizing as a valid claim to an entire star system in otherwise neutral space." ...is much more than something "that might be worth recognizing". The system has been discovered, mapped, actively utilized, and defended. There is no doubt about the claim. If you or your allies continue with this approach to territoriality I am quite sure the result will be conflict with any number of interests. This is a policy of the Boo and not necessarily that of any other. Clearly we have presented others with a non-exclusive illustrative list of factors that our government will take into account in deciding whether or not we will recognize a claim of sovereignty to what would ordinarily be neutral space. Big Picture: As long as the Boo are left alone we will not vex others. All we have asked for, at the end of the cycle, is that we be given an objective non-violent way to know where sovereign territory of other races begins and ends. We are not fools. Just because a race makes a claim doesn't mean that claim is legitimate. We just as for some sort of good faith effort at proving up a claim. If a race wishes to exclude others from a system or planet, then it is their duty to inform the rest of us where we are not allowed to travel. Space is free, and freedom of navigation is the a priori status of space. This policy is not an ultimatum, it is an invitation to negotiate. The trouble makers in the Galaxy can twist and spin anything and make it seem negative. These factors are a security guarentee. When dealing with the Boo, you know what to expect. This tends to reduce the political and military risks associated with exploration and commerce. This policy will facilitate peaceful first contact and commerce. This policy is emphatically jnot warlike, but rather an embryonic effort by the Boo to see the galaxy with a respect for the rights of others and the rule of law rather than arms. Boo Consulate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boo Consulate Posted October 31, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Clan Elder 'Keen, Stop taking things out of context, what I get from what the Boo were saying is that just because someone sets op a pop beacon in a orbit with nothing else there doesn't mean 100% ownership. Context? I have not taken anything out of context. His statement is quite clear: "If one colonizes more than one world or builds garrisons at all the warp points of a system, then that might be worth recognizing as a valid claim to an entire star system in otherwise neutral space." And even at that, this only might meet his threshold for sovereign territory. Clan Elder Keen These are factors to consider when making first contact. It refers to our government's decision making process regarding the legal status of different systems. That is all it means. It deals with diplomatic recognition. That is not the same thing as refusing to stay away. If the Boo regard a claim as spurious we will publically protest the claim. Does that mean we would enter the system. Maybe, but probably not. These policy statements are in reference to the legal formalities our government will accept. It says nothing about political reality. The Boo have all the sovereign territory they require. If we are told we can not enter a system we will probably stop. The only sistuation that we can envision where we wouldn't stop is if we have some vital interest in a system that required transit through the excluded one. This is no different than what any other race would do. The difference is we have stated publically our willingness to enter into good faith negotiations with others concerning these matters. Even in the aforementioned situation, the Boo is much more inclined to exhaust all diplomatic and economic means to secure some arrangement for passage to the hypothetically system of vital importance. So, you have indeed taken our statements out of context. They are very precise diplomatic communications that can only be understood in light of the whole of our discourse on this matter. In Peace Boo Consulate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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