Virmilyn Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Good Day All. I've been reading all the Naval Combat posts and am not clear. So I'll put on my dunce cap and lay out the following example to you. So far everything I've seen has been a great help and I appreciate the effort everyone puts in to make the game that much more fun. I’m at turn 14 and every time I read the boards I have to modify my game play. OK, to the example: What I've read: A) Maneuver engines only count for Defense. Number of ships each ship in your fleet can target is: (Fleet bridge rating)/(Fleet tonnage))+(Commander Bonus) C) Your deployment location never changes. D) You can not close range to a target to maximize weapon damage. So,did I understand these correctly? My fleet: Deployment location 2 One 1,000,000 ton ship Admiral on board 4AP 1000 Mk2 Computers 100 Mk2 short range sensors 1000 10cm Auto cannons Armor, screens, CID, fuel tanks etc... Enemy Fleet Fifty 1,000 ton screening ships Deploc 1 Ten 100,000 war ships Deploc 12 Does weapons compliment makes a difference for this example? Targeting: 1) Mk2 Comp rating= 4,000 Therefore my targeting capability is 4 + 5 = 9 ships per combat round? 2) Will I only target Deploc 1 until those ships are gone? 3) Will I destroy 9 screening ships per turn? Or will the damage get spread among all Deploc 1? 4) If I had 75 screening ships at Deploc 1 would they be able to target 60 of them? (One for each of his ships) 5) If I only had 40 screening at Deploc 1 would there targeting rollover to Deploc 2? 6) Can a ship fail to target anything? Weapons: 7) Do all weapons reach every Deploc? 8) Are some weapons more effective at certain Deplocs? So if I’m at Deploc 12 and they are at Deploc 12 will my energy weapon be able to hit and inflict damage? Sensors: 9) Do they help in combat? Defense: 10) Does my AP help me not get targeted? 11) Is there an AP that makes a ship invulnerable to fighters/missiles/drones? 12) Do we know what AP Fighters/missiles/drones have? Warp Point Assult 13) Does your fleet come through according to Deploc positioning? Every ship in Deploc 1 then 2 and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted May 3, 2005 Report Share Posted May 3, 2005 Short answers to some of your questions- If you have an FC of 9 then all of your fire power is divided up into 9 blobs and will target 9 targets. In your example you will likely obliterate 9 screens a turn until you have gotten rid of most of them. Weapons load out does make some difference as it dtermines at what range you can position your own ships. The only real difference it makes to the defender is to determine if the specific defenses counter the weapons being used. The defender gets a bonus based on location that has nothing to do with the attackers weapons. All offensive damage is adjusted for range of the offensive fleet and then totalled. This total is then divided into blobs that are assigned to individual targets. After picking a target a further reduction is made based upon defenders location and any defensive systems that apply, Then it is adjusted for shields and any remaining applied to the ships integrity. In your example the battle will be won or lost on weapons load out. If the ships at DepLoc 12 are loaded with fighters/drones or long range missiles/torps then they will likely win the battle. If they were loaded with conventional beam weapons then they will likely loose. All weapons can hit and inflict damage at every range, although the amount can be reduced to 10% of normal damage. This can make battles last a very long time. Sensors are a defense against minefields. If you are facing minefields then you want sensors, otherwise they are of no particular value. High AP is a defense against fighters, but there is not a level that nullifies fighter and drone threats. fighters and drones can get increased speed through Pulse engines to counter higher AP targets. AP level has nothing to do with targeting determination. Neither does size, ship class or just about any other obvious ship characteristc. Ships try and warp through according to class. So all of the Assault ships, classA, try and come through first followed by the B's and so on. If you have set up a Fleet Battle plan that has the assault ships in the rear they will still try and warp through first. Every combat is a bit different and sometimes it is the smallest thing that will swing the balance into your favor. SO, find and enemy and practice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Targeting: 1) Mk2 Comp rating= 4,000 Therefore my targeting capability is 4 + 5 = 9 ships per combat round? **Close. The Admiral counts as 5 + square root of all command in the fleet (since he's the only one there, square root of 5) = 5 + 2.x = 7. 4000 MK III Computers * 1000 units / 1,000,000 tons = 4 base fire rate. 4 + 7 = 11 pulses of damage fired per round. 2) Will I only target Deploc 1 until those ships are gone? ** Targeting is random. Deploy location 1 has a higher percentage chance of being fired on. Put 50 screesn in Deploy Location 1, and 10 Capital ship in deploy location 12, and odds are the Deploy Location 1 ships will be hit first (though you could get lucky and fire a shot or two deep early) 3) Will I destroy 9 screening ships per turn? Or will the damage get spread among all Deploc 1? ** You will fire 11 pulses of damage (total damage diveded by 11). Each pulse will be targeted at one ship at random. The same ship can be hit multiple times (if it survives a previous hit). Now, you are firing from Deploy location 2, and I think Autocannons get a slight penalty for not firing from Dep Loc 1 (-10%). Still, your firepower should be sufficent to destroy 11 screens per battle round. 4) If I had 75 screening ships at Deploc 1 would they be able to target 60 of them? (One for each of his ships) ** Combat is at a fleet level. No matter how many ships you have (100, 500, 1000) ... the total firepower of the fleet is added up, diveded by the total fire control rating, and you fire "X" pulses of damage towards the enemy. The thing that 75 screens would do for you is now, the enemy has a random chance to hit the screens when firing back. And with 75 screens and 1 Capital ship, odds are your big ship will not be hit. So, no help in firing, lots of help in defense. 5) If I only had 40 screening at Deploc 1 would there targeting rollover to Deploc 2? ** See 3 & 4 above 6) Can a ship fail to target anything? ** See 3 & 4 above. Since all fire is at fleet level, all pulses are fired at enemy ships. Weapons: 7) Do all weapons reach every Deploc? ** Yes. But .. the enemy ships get some type of defensive bonuses that reduce the effectiveness (or maybe even cause some misses) to ship at deeper deploy locations. Ships at deploy location 12 will have maxed out their defense. On the other side, weapons fire power degrades (depending on the type) the further away they are fired from deploy location 1 (down to a minimum of 5% of fire power). IE, you lose power the greater the distance fired. 8) Are some weapons more effective at certain Deplocs? So if I’m at Deploc 12 and they are at Deploc 12 will my energy weapon be able to hit and inflict damage? ** Yes. See above Sensors: 9) Do they help in combat? ** As mentioned, the add defenses versus minefields. I suspect that may have other uses as well (I know of a couple of battles that ended in draws where one ships supposedly ran away .. and it would make sense to me if Sensors came into play in reducing the chances and enemy fleet runs and escapes .. but this is rare to begin with anyway). Defense: 10) Does my AP help me not get targeted? ** Nope. But, I have gotten a blurb that my higher AP ship was able to avoid a "ramming" in a battle. Not certain if Pete has tossed in some surprise "events" to happen in battles. Certainly a lucky shot could cause a ship's engines to explode (as all the descriptions point out). So AP may have some impact on deciding what happens in these events if one occurs (you avoid a ram ... you chase down and capture a slower ship .. etc...). 11) Is there an AP that makes a ship invulnerable to fighters/missiles/drones? ** Nope. You need CIDS defenses or your own interceptors. Higher AP may reduce damage (while hobknob says it does, I'm not sure myself .. though it would make sense!) 12) Do we know what AP Fighters/missiles/drones have? ** Not applicable to combat as far as we know. They always fight as if at deploy location 1. Warp Point Assult 13) Does your fleet come through according to Deploc positioning? Every ship in Deploc 1 then 2 and so on. ** Nope. As per HK, A class ships first, then B, then etc... your deploy location orders have no bearing on the matter. Which can really screw up a battle plan. If you put a plan in place where the "A" ships are in Dep Loc 7, and the "D" ships in Dep Loc 1 .. the "A" ships will rush through the WP first, ignoring your battle plan, and running right into the waiting defenders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 13) Does your fleet come through according to Deploc positioning?Every ship in Deploc 1 then 2 and so on. ** Nope. As per HK, A class ships first, then B, then etc... your deploy location orders have no bearing on the matter. Which can really screw up a battle plan. If you put a plan in place where the "A" ships are in Dep Loc 7, and the "D" ships in Dep Loc 1 .. the "A" ships will rush through the WP first, ignoring your battle plan, and running right into the waiting defenders. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's a little harsh.... You design your ships in certain classes that give them a more likely chance to come through WPs first, but then adjust the Battle Plan to fight them as you want. There may be many occasions when you'd want later arriving ships to come to the front and take over from the battered assaulting ships - especially if the assault ships are fitted with long range weapons. The point is that your battle plans can be made to fight your ships as you wish. However, this does mean that you must design ships to meet the classes you want in the first place... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 13) Does your fleet come through according to Deploc positioning? Every ship in Deploc 1 then 2 and so on. ** Nope. As per HK, A class ships first, then B, then etc... your deploy location orders have no bearing on the matter. Which can really screw up a battle plan. If you put a plan in place where the "A" ships are in Dep Loc 7, and the "D" ships in Dep Loc 1 .. the "A" ships will rush through the WP first, ignoring your battle plan, and running right into the waiting defenders. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's a little harsh.... You design your ships in certain classes that give them a more likely chance to come through WPs first, but then adjust the Battle Plan to fight them as you want. There may be many occasions when you'd want later arriving ships to come to the front and take over from the battered assaulting ships - especially if the assault ships are fitted with long range weapons. The point is that your battle plans can be made to fight your ships as you wish. However, this does mean that you must design ships to meet the classes you want in the first place... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Not harsh. Reality. A potentially painful lesson to learn if you do not get it right to start. Of course, Pete does have on the work list adding a "change class" order for ships, so you can adjust a ships class (the role you will want them to have will change over time as technology or other situations advance). And once that rolls out, it will make this a little easier. Still, this makes WP assaults a different animal planning wise than other Naval battles. If two fleets encounter each other in space, all the ships show up at once, and the battle is based on deploy location as to the percentage chances of who gets shot at first (deploy location 1 the highest, then 2, ...). Nice and simple. But in a WP assault, the fleet moving through the WP does so in Mission Class order (A, B, C, ...). Depending on the Warp Bubble size for you ships, and the size limit on the WP, these factors determines how many ships show up each round of battle (until the whole fleet moves through the WP). Ships that have completed their transition through the WP do fight/get shot at in Deploy Location order like any other battle. But since ships are coming through round by round, and they are doing so in Class (not deploy location) order, the chances your key ships could be shot at first may be quite a bit higher than you had hoped for with your carefully designed deployment. Come on now. Do you think that designing screening ships at 1000 tons each as class A (assault) while perhaps designing Capital ships as class E (Escort) ... just to force them through the WP in the order you want (since your defined order in Deploy Locations is ignored) makes sense? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali-t-akua Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 But in a WP assault, the fleet moving through the WP does so in Mission Class order (A, B, C, ...). While I think it would make more sense to have ships comethrough based on their DepLoc rather than their mission class, I was under the impression that the order wasn't absolutely determined by Mission class. Rather the order was somewhat randomized. Is that correct or did I misread an earlier post? (Sorry haven't got time at the moment to find the ealier thread. ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 I believe the order is pretty well fixed, but there is the odd chance of an oddity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted May 4, 2005 Report Share Posted May 4, 2005 Come on now. Do you think that designing screening ships at 1000 tons each as class A (assault) while perhaps designing Capital ships as class E (Escort) ... just to force them through the WP in the order you want (since your defined order in Deploy Locations is ignored) makes sense? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, given that this is actually one of those few things we have known of from the start - yes.... Having the ability to have the DepLocs of your ships independant of the Warp Order could be very useful....particularly when it comes to those little screen ships...... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 Come on now. Do you think that designing screening ships at 1000 tons each as class A (assault) while perhaps designing Capital ships as class E (Escort) ... just to force them through the WP in the order you want (since your defined order in Deploy Locations is ignored) makes sense? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Actually, given that this is actually one of those few things we have known of from the start - yes.... Having the ability to have the DepLocs of your ships independant of the Warp Order could be very useful....particularly when it comes to those little screen ships...... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Well, one nice feature in the game is the ability to define your own battle orders. You can take something like Total Defense, copy it, and change it so Class "A" is deploy location 1, Class B in 2, etc... if you like (or any other order). If you use it, you control the whole enchilada. And with some planning ahead for needed "classes" of ships, you can do just about anything you want. Of course the one small problem is, it takes a lot of orders to do define your own formations. And so, rather than spend the time / orders, some folks build ships to the classes to match the various formations already predefined. I think I would like to see some type of "Change Class" order. And then, maybe a unified order to define new formations, making it easy to set-up and change (just like the SRP order). That would ideal. Still, there's nothing really wrong with the current system .. as long as you know how it works and you plan ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted May 5, 2005 Report Share Posted May 5, 2005 I think I would like to see some type of "Change Class" order. And then, maybe a unified order to define new formations, making it easy to set-up and change (just like the SRP order). That would ideal. Still, there's nothing really wrong with the current system .. as long as you know how it works and you plan ahead. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah well, there we must agree.... We think that sort of order is needed to cope with the changes that many will want to make... We'd also very very much like the 'copying' FBP order to be extended to include Convoy Routes - ie copying one and giving it a new name..... Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Lariss Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 I think I would like to see some type of "Change Class" order. And then, maybe a unified order to define new formations, making it easy to set-up and change (just like the SRP order). That would ideal. Still, there's nothing really wrong with the current system .. as long as you know how it works and you plan ahead. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ah well, there we must agree.... We think that sort of order is needed to cope with the changes that many will want to make... We'd also very very much like the 'copying' FBP order to be extended to include Convoy Routes - ie copying one and giving it a new name..... Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Forgive me Ur-Lord but wouldn't this mean pages and pages of fleet battle plans all labled "Special attack-1 (then 2 and 3 and 4 etc.) every time the convoy route would run it would create a new FBP. I do not see the point. I do like the idea of a "Change Class" order and think it would be a great addition to the current rules of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali-t-akua Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 RTG does have to make money somewhere so I doubt the copy order will be implemented. The other proposals do make sense as I know I cannot afford to burn tons of orders every time I want to create a new or modified combat formation and I would hope that a change class or Adjust Fleet formation order that allows several changes to be done in a single order would be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted May 6, 2005 Report Share Posted May 6, 2005 Forgive me Ur-Lord but wouldn't this mean pages and pages of fleet battle plans all labled "Special attack-1 (then 2 and 3 and 4 etc.) every time the convoy route would run it would create a new FBP. I do not see the point. I do like the idea of a "Change Class" order and think it would be a great addition to the current rules of the game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, no no... We're sorry, we meant nothing like that...... What we'd very much like - and put in another thread a while ago - and the Copy FBP order that already exists and would do perfectly if modified.... Is to be able to Copy a Convoy Route into a newly named one. We'd also very much like to be able to append a convoy route to an existing one... With just these two orders we could make use of obsolete convoy routes and reasonably amend new copies with selected ECNVs.... We've no objection to the making of money, but having written convoy routes once, it seems a little unreasonable to have to redo them every time we get an engine upgrade... Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Lariss Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Forgive me Ur-Lord but wouldn't this mean pages and pages of fleet battle plans all labled "Special attack-1 (then 2 and 3 and 4 etc.) every time the convoy route would run it would create a new FBP. I do not see the point. I do like the idea of a "Change Class" order and think it would be a great addition to the current rules of the game. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> No, no no... We're sorry, we meant nothing like that...... What we'd very much like - and put in another thread a while ago - and the Copy FBP order that already exists and would do perfectly if modified.... Is to be able to Copy a Convoy Route into a newly named one. We'd also very much like to be able to append a convoy route to an existing one... With just these two orders we could make use of obsolete convoy routes and reasonably amend new copies with selected ECNVs.... We've no objection to the making of money, but having written convoy routes once, it seems a little unreasonable to have to redo them every time we get an engine upgrade... Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Ahh Understanding now filters in. I read your earlier post and thought it would be a good idea, Kinda low on my personal priority list of things that could/should be done, but a good Idean nonne the less T'Lariss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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