silly question but I can't resist

[rotor911]

Ok, I know that it's an awfully general question and that there can't be a yes or no answer but still I want to know what the experienced players think :

supposing 2 empires which start at the same time with more or less the same amount of srp. One is a warmonger and uses exclusively its slot 0 for weapons, the other uses its srp for economy, space travel, colonisation, all peaceful things.

When these 2 empires will meet, we can assume that the first one should have a definitive edge in weaponry but that the other should be able to outproduce its enemy by a large margin and also should have a much better "strategic mobility" (better engines and drives); the "peaceful" empire should also have a lot more systems to fall back on (better exploring and warp survey technology). But would it suffice or would the warmonger have a definitive advantage? Can a thousand MkI something outshoot 1 MkVII?

This question is aching in the back of my mind since I started (until now I went the "peaceful" way : I don't use srp for weapons) and I'd like to hear from others about the subject even if, again, I understand that there can't be a definite answer.

[Pandaemonium]

From what I have found so far, weapon effectiveness tends to progress by a factor of two per level. At that rate, a Mk VII weapon would be about as effective as sixty-four Mk I weapons of the same type.

 

I also went the peaceful route, but I 'bought' some armor, shields and one weapon. I'm still happy with those choices.

[ali-t-akua]

Ok, I know that it's an awfully general question and that there can't be a yes or no answer but still I want to know what the experienced players think :

supposing 2 empires which start at the same time with more or less the same amount of srp. One is a warmonger  and uses exclusively its slot 0 for weapons, the other uses its srp for economy, space travel, colonisation, all peaceful things.

When these 2 empires will meet, we can assume that the first one should have a definitive edge in weaponry but that the other should  be able to outproduce its enemy by a large margin and also should have a much better "strategic mobility" (better engines and drives); the "peaceful" empire should also have a lot more  systems to fall back on (better exploring and warp survey technology).  But would it suffice or would the warmonger have a definitive advantage?  Can a thousand MkI something outshoot 1 MkVII?

This question is aching in the back of my mind since I started (until now I went the "peaceful" way : I don't use srp for weapons) and I'd like to hear from others about the subject  even if, again, I understand that there can't be a definite answer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This is a very complex question. In my opinion, the empire that focuses on weapons has an advantage early on. If they can find an empire that has dropped their position and they can take it over, they will be able to get some compensation for the lack of focus on production. If they are unable to do that then in the long run, the empire that has focused on production will gradually gain the advantage. However according to the Keeper of the Universe (Pete), no intelligently-played, active position is a push over so you should not panic if you think you may have made a bad choice in strategy early on.

[hobknob]

From the experience of a core player who is currently involved in at least 3 seperate shooting conflicts.

 

The better weapons will almost always win. A colonizer will never be able to out produce to compensate for better weapons, I know because I have one and it doesn't work. My colonizer is also running around with really fast engines and has all the production stuff, but no SRP's spent on weapons.

 

The only counter to better weapons is armor/shields.

 

Look at it this way. I can have double the production of my enemy but that will be completely negated if his weapons are 1 generation more advanced than mine. If he is 2 generations more advanced then I would need better than 4 times his production to out gun him.

 

Everything else is irrelevant. Engines don't matter so much and I have built ships using the standard 2AP design with one engine. Not small ships but battle ships. They take longer to get there but when they arrive I have 20-30% more ship devoted to offensive systems or armor.

 

However, there is no accounting for what the enemy will do. Even with superior weapons your ship designs may be so poor as to prevent you from victory or the same of the opponent.

 

In the end you have to decide how you wnat to go and just go for it.

 

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

[OoC] There are other factors, as well. The two have about the same SRPs, but what did they spend the rest on? You can afford to be peaceful if you have a good racial design to maximize the kind of fighting you think you're going to do. What sort of gov't do they both have? A technocracy will be able to switch gears very quickly and run up any weapon tree it wants using scientist hits to negate the warmonger's SRPs.

AS you said, it's a complex question, and no simple answer.

[iC] "War" is a practical joke perpetrated by the galaxy at large. We simply can't understand why anyone would need to fight when there are so many good worlds out there for us to share.

What? It's not a need, it's a want? Now you truly are being silly. Go on, pull the other three legs.

[WKE235]

I think you need to take into account that this game has been designed to present the warmonger with serious challenges if and when they go up against active players.

 

Any peaceful player could easily be producing 50 screen ships each turn from turn 1. From a warmonger perspective, when your ship bristling with weapons runs into a fleet consisiting of 500 screens and a couple of capital ships behind the screen .. and all you can do is shoot down a couple screens per turn .. you are in trouble.

 

So, the warmonger must be researching computers and fire control boosts, along with their weapons. They need to be able to shoot lots of screen ships to get through any defensive lines. And speaking of defense, having a big ship with lots of fire control and weapons is fine only as long as it stays fighting in the battle. If the peaceful enemy is shooting at your with Mk I weapons but you have no shields and no armor, those Mk I weapons will appear very effective.

 

OK, so the warmonger is now researching armor and shields along with fire control and weapons. Of course to build these advanced items, you need to complete research into Improved materials, and then Advanced materials (like electronics).

 

OK, so the warmonger is now researching armor, shields, computers, weapons, improved and advanced materials. Almost forgot, you have to find your peaceful neighbor to attack them. So you need to get thos MK III and likely MK IV JSS to go searching all the WP's. Gee, that's gonna take some time. At only two AP per ship as they search the skies, that's a lot of ships .. or more research (this time into engines to get AP improvements -- and maybe into Transwarp drives for quicker movement through WP's). Ya know, SRP freebies ain't gonna cover it.

 

So lets look to the peaceful player to see what else they are doing while you are searching the skies. They have 25 research slots, just like you. So while they may be concentrating on economic boosts with the SRP and other items, they can also be researching (at one slot per turn) a CID, a Weapon line, an Armor, a Computer, an Engine, and a couple other items. They already need to be researchign the improved materials and advanced needed for their economic advances. The net result is that peaceful player will NOT be sitting there with Mk I weapons and the like. They will have more advanced defenses and weapons. Not as good as the warmonger. But enough that with big screens, they can put up one hell of a defense on the other side of WP's.

 

Sorry to say, but any warmonger in this game will be hard pressed to succeed against an active player all by their lonesome. Oh certainly, it can be done with good planning, strategy, and careful effort. But this game is definately oriented so players can very easily put up a good defense against any warmonger. That with R&D limits and SRP freebie limits means no one will be so advantaged so as to walk over an active player (who is prepared).

 

Also, note that warmongers tend to be individuals looking for quick kills. And as you can see on this board, many of the hated warmongers have been dropping the game and leaving. It's to boring for them, all this planning and slowly moving about the universe. They lack patience. And unless they can quickly win over someone and stand there gloating, the game provides little interest to them. That is the peaceful players greatest defense. Play nice and don't antagonize the warmongers. Try to work with them (while building your defeneses of course). Avoid joining them in conflicts versus others while joining with others only for defense when a warmonger attacks. And eventually the warmonger leaves as they can't stomach the slow pace of the game. Victory through boredom.

[ali-t-akua]

Victory through boredom.

 

Now there's a motto, "Victory through ennui! Peace by siesta!"

 

Hopefully the game will be a little more exicting than that. Defintely this is a game for planners rather than warriors which is why I am here.

[octagon999]

Bore them into submission.

[Azuth]

Its a good thing I researched Patience then. Had them in slots 26-50.

 

** Stay Tuned. Coming to a star system near you **

[WKE235]

I hope I wasn't to negative. But, this game is definately not designed to rush in, build things, and run about fighting. It takes a different view to stick to the game long term. For example, MMB made some final comments to me that the game was just getting to boring. He was fighting against an enemy 14 jumps away, and the time to build and get things there was just not very entertaining. Or, in my battles with Norm after he dropped the Bashkar, I ran into a fleet he could have used for screening his ships in attacking my home system, and perhaps victory may have been his in that case. His comment was he got tired of waiting to get the ships to the front one system at a time and simply attacked.

 

Both players did very well in doing research on their races, planning them out, and building. MMB's The Colony which I took over has taught me a thing or two on how to improve my colonizer race. Norms carefully carried out SRP advances on certain techs so he could to build the baddest warships in the area, which did have me scared (and if it weren't for screen ships and the help of others, I would have been in big trouble). But, it appears to me that for them, a very important aspect of the game would be battling others .. that interaction with someone to try and outwit them, beat them, whatever. And when due to the game design that aspect was reduced to a slow burn, something not as critical to success in the game, the overall game lost enough entertainment value to that that they dropped / left.

 

Am I making sense here?

[ali-t-akua]

Am I making sense here?

 

You are. No game will please everyone. I personally prefer economic games with a combat element over a combat game with an economic element (although I also like a pure combat game with a historical basis.) But that is what I enjoy. Others may find their pleasure elsewhere.

[Mechanica]

Have you tried Heart of Iron?

 

I prefer HOI 1 over HOI 2.

[ali-t-akua]

Have you tried Heart of Iron?

 

I prefer HOI 1 over HOI 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

No I haven't. Frankly I only have time for SN right now.

 

I did look at a review of the game and it looks like something I would enjoy if I had the time.

 

[Hughestrog]

Have you tried Heart of Iron?

 

I prefer HOI 1 over HOI 2.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Great Game!

 

Not tried HOI 2, yet.