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Naval Combat Question


Prospective

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Hi all,

 

On the bottom of page 6 of the Naval Combat document is an example of damage mitigation on a ship equipped with Black Sphere Generators. In the example it says:

 

"You decide to use up some of the 450,000 other tons on Type A Black Sphere

Generators, which provide defense specifically against Plasma Torps, and design 10 of them into the Excalibur. This takes up 50,000 tons, or 10% of the ship, and provides 10 * 250,000 = 2.5 million, for a Plasma weapon mitigation of 5 on this 500,000 ton ship."

 

In the last sentence of the quote above, Pete multiplies 10 * 250,000 to arrive at 2.5 million...

 

I understand 10 is the number of black sphere generators on the ship (or is it 10% tonnage of the ship???). But, where does the 250,000 factor come from? I have seen a "new" version of the ANZ for a Black Sphere Generator, and nowhere does it state is has a rating of 250,000... Can anyone help me to understand?

 

A second related question; does the example apply to all other "special" defensive systems listed in the table preceeding the example (bottom of page 5 thru the top of page 6)? What I mean is, would the example calculation apply equally as well for the relation between deflectors/projectile weapons, displacement devices/gravitonic weapons, ECM/energy discharge, etc....

 

If yes, how are differing technology levels handled? For instance, if an attacker uses 1st generation projectile weapons (10cm Autocannon) and the defender uses 1st generation deflectors (Type A Deflector) there is no technological advantage to attacker of defender since they are both 1st generation systems. However, if the defender happens to have 2nd generation deflectors (Type B Deflectors) and the attacker is still using 10cm Autocannons, does the defender get a 2x multiplier somewhere in the calculation of damage mitigation? Seems there should be some advantage for the defender in this case.

 

Thanks in advance for your help... :beer:

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I understand 10 is the number of black sphere generators on the ship (or is it 10% tonnage of the ship???).  But, where does the 250,000 factor come from?  I have seen a "new" version of the ANZ for a Black Sphere Generator, and nowhere does it state is has a rating of 250,000...  Can anyone help me to understand?

 

It's a magic number. You have to be a SN3 GM to know it, or find a way to derive it in-game.

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Paradigm,

 

If the 250,000 number is a number known only by the GM's, then I'm not clear why there is even an example in the document. What would be the point in explaining something with a number that is (and forever will be) a mystery number?

 

Pete/Russ, can you shed any light on the questions in my original post?

 

Thanks.

 

Steve

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Prospective,

 

I can't answer the question as to where to find the 250,000 value if it's not included in the ANZ. Although the possibility exists that Pete just pulled that value out of the sky for purposes of the example and it isn't the "true" value for Type A Black Sphere Generators.

 

Yes, is the answer to your second question, all specific defenses work similarly, which is to say they provide mitigation (i.e. deflection of damage). Only Armor and Shields/Fields work differently, they work by means of ablation (i.e. they must be worn down or overcome).

 

In answer to your third question, the differing tech levels are taken into account based on the value that the specific defense generates. Using the potentially bogus Type A BSG value of 250,000 above, let's assume that Type B Black Sphere Generators have a 375,000 value, so if you use 10 of the Type Bs you'd garner a 7.5 mitigation value on the example 500,000 ton ship, for the same tonnage of BSGs. That's the defensive side.

 

The offensive side is that higher generations of weapons do more damage. Using a very primitive example, let's say that Mk I Doom Blasters do 10,000 points of Doom damage each and Mk II Doom Blasters do 15,000 each. We'll arm our Early Model Ship with 10 Mk I Doom Blasters, giving it 100,000 points of Doom, and our Later Model Ship with 10 Mk II Doom Blasters, giving it 150,000 points of Doom. Your target vessels have Type A and Type B Luck Projectors, which conveniently for this example repel Doom damage. Target A with the Type A Luck Projectors can repel 5% Doom and Target B with the same number of Projectors but of the Type B variety can repel 7.5% Doom damage. For giggles, let's say both ships are shieldless and have an integrity of 125,000. (I know that's ridiculously low, they're target dummies after all ... :drunk:)

 

Early Model shoots Target A, while Later Model shoots Target B. Let's see what happens ...

 

>>> BZ-Z-ZOT<<<

 

Target A would take 95,000 points [95% of 100k] of Doom damage.

Target B would take 138,750 points [92.5% of 150k] of Doom damage.

 

Target A is severly crippled and Target B is destroyed, even though Target A only deflected 5,000 points compared to Target B's deflection of 11,250 points (more than twice as much).

 

Admittedly, this doesn't take into account what kind of range the Doom Blasters are designed to shoot from (Short to Stand-off) nor the DepLoc that the ships were firing from and the myriad of other factors that can come into play. This was just to crudely show you how advances up each side (offense v. defense) interact.

 

I hope that helped ...

 

-SK :beer:

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Shadowkitsune,

 

Yes your explanation helps to a point. I see how the offensive side of things work, especially since we now have ANZ's that give concrete numbers.

 

However, it's "specialty" defense mitigation that still gives me problems. I see numbers on ANZ's for shields and armor so I do understand how that works (pretty straightforward). The section about point defense and the differing tech levels between the CIDS and the missile/torpedo/fighter system makes sense. However, I have never seen any numbers on ANZ's for the "specialty defense" items like Black Sphere generators, ECM's, Deflectors etc.... Is that something that is forthcoming in future ANZ's, similar to what we saw with offensive systems a few months ago?

 

Thanks.

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Yes, is the answer to your second question, all specific defenses work similarly, which is to say they provide mitigation (i.e. deflection of damage).  Only Armor and Shields/Fields work differently, they work by means of ablation (i.e. they must be worn down or overcome).

 

CIDS also work differently from the specific defenses in that they have a two fold effect. Against Fighters and Drones they offer a point defense for the entire fleet whereby fighters and drones are eliminated. In addition, they mitigate attacks by missiles, torpodoes, drones and fighters for specific ships armed with them.

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Shadowkitsune,

 

Yes your explanation helps to a point.  I see how the offensive side of things work, especially since we now have ANZ's that give concrete numbers. 

 

However, it's "specialty" defense mitigation that still gives me problems.  I see numbers on ANZ's for shields and armor so I do understand how that works (pretty straightforward).  The section about point defense and the differing tech levels between the CIDS and the missile/torpedo/fighter system makes sense.  However, I have never seen any numbers on ANZ's for the "specialty defense" items like Black Sphere generators, ECM's, Deflectors etc....  Is that something that is forthcoming in future ANZ's, similar to what we saw with offensive systems a few months ago?

 

Thanks.

 

To paraphrase Paradigm, only the Oracle known as RTGPete knows the answer to that question ... :drunk:

 

-SK :beer:

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The numbers that you are looking for are the ones that will determine exactly by what % a specific type of damage will be reduced. I do not believe those numbers are forth coming.

 

Also, to clarify the previous example a bit.

 

There are 14 types of offensive damage ( If memory serves). There is also a defensive system for each offensive damage type.

 

During a fleet engagement each side will fire off all available weapons. This potential damage is adjusted for the range bonus or penalty of the firing fleet and then added up to give you the total potential damage available. The potential damage is then divided into globs based on the fire control rating of the sides of the battle. Assuming a Fire Control Rating of 10, after considering all modifications, you would get 10 seperate globs. Each of these globs is targeted during the targeting phase and assigned to a target. ( I understand that this is sequential so it would happen one glob at a time) Once the target is determined then an adjustment is made for the targets range, which would generally reduce the amount of potential damage. Then the individual defensive systems are evaluated to determine effect against the incoming potential damage. The individual defensive systems reduce the potential damage by a %. This can amount to a lot or a little, but we don't know. This information is not available to any but the GM's at this point. After the individual defensive systems are evaluated, the incoming damage is reduced accordingly. The damage potential now goes to the shields. The shield stage is really straight forward as it is a straight calculation. Shields have a total strength value (hit points) and damage is applied to this value. Once you have absorbed damage equal to the value, the shields are saturated and are basically done for the remainder of the combat. All remaining damage is applied to the integrity of the ship as a straight reduction. As the overall integrity of the ship is reduced, so are all the systems on board. At some point the integrity will be so low that the ship is destroyed. This point is also unknown.

 

The question of the level of offensive system and the comparison to the level of the defensive systems are apples and oranges. Offensive systems increase the total number of points generated while defensive systems increase the % reduction based on the defensive systems. The level of the defensive system only matters as pertains to the overall value of the defensive system. For both offensive and defensive it winds up being a value/ton relationship. Weapons get bigger and better with each generation and that increase is a doubling of the damage/ton. The defensive systems also increase, but we don't know what the levels are.

 

To further complicate matters, defensive systems are tied to % of the ship/fleet. Offensive weapons deal a set amount of damage regardless of the size ship that the weapon is a part of. Defensive systems are tied to the size of the ship. As a result, defensive systems are fixed to a %mass of the ship for a given effect.

 

The information to figure out how to achieve a particular defensive rating has not been passed along to the players. What we do know is that more is better and that 10% of ships mass is a good place to start.

 

Currently, defensive ratings are indicated in the battle report. There are several recent ones that have been posted that will give you a good idea of how much stuff, at what level, gives what result.

 

 

Hopefully this clarifies matters as well as answering your question.

 

:beer::cheers::drunk:

 

fixed spelling and punctuation.

Edited by hobknob
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The question of level of offensive system and the comparison to the level of the defensive systems are apples and oranges.  Offensive systems increase the total number of points generated while defensive systems increase the % reduction based on the defensive systems.  The level of the defensive system only matters as pertains to the overall value of the defensive system.  For both offensive and defensivne it winds up beeing a value /ton relation ship.  Weapons get bigger and better with each generation and that increase is a doubling of the damage/ton.  The defensive systems also increase, but we don't know what the levels are.

 

To further complicate matters, defensive systms are tied to % of the ship/fleet.  Offensive weapons deal a set amount of damage regardless of the size ship that the weapon is a part of.  Defensive systems are tied to the size of the ship.  As a result, defensive systems are fixed to a %mass of the ship for a given effect. 

 

The information to figure out how to achieve a particular defensive rating has not been passed along to the players.  What we do know is that more is better and that 10% of ships mass is a good place to start.

 

Currently, defensive ratins are indicated in the battle report.  There are several recent ones that have been posted that will give you a good idea of how much stuff at what level gives what result.

 

 

Hopefully this clarifies matters as well as answering your question.

 

:beer:  :cheers:  :drunk:

 

This is an excellent, concise description of the system.

 

The defensive numbers are not a complete mystery but any understanding I've gained has been done by reviewing what battles I have had the opputunity to see - especially the stuff that has been posted here. It is a lot to digest.

 

-LX

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Hobknob,

 

Thanks for the summary it was well thought out and helped explain how combat comes together. As always, your comments were very helpful.

 

After thinking about it for a bit, I decided to reread the naval combat primer, along with the thread associated with it. As it turns out, you asked the same question of Pete in early September (where did the 10 * 250,000 number come from).

 

Pete responded that the 250,000 number is the value in the database for Type A BSG's.

 

Marvin followed up asking how we get that number for other systems and Pete responded "The new values will be shown in ANZ once the combat upgrade goes through."

 

So, the answer was there all along. Unless things change, we should start getting that information once the combat upgrade goes through.

 

Of course, that begs the question... when will that happen? Maybe that's why Pete has been so quiet lately?

 

Pete, would you provide an update as to when we might see the upgrade go into effect? Even a rough guess (+/- 3 months) would be appreciated. :P

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Hobknob,

 

Thanks for the summary it was well thought out and helped explain how combat comes together.  As always, your comments were very helpful.

 

After thinking about it for a bit, I decided to reread the naval combat primer, along with the thread associated with it.  As it turns out, you asked the same question of Pete in early September (where did the 10 * 250,000 number come from).

 

Pete responded that the 250,000 number is the value in the database for Type A BSG's.

 

Marvin followed up asking how we get that number for other systems and Pete responded "The new values will be shown in ANZ once the combat upgrade goes through."

 

So, the answer was there all along.  Unless things change, we should start getting that information once the combat upgrade goes through.

 

Of course, that begs the question... when will that happen?  Maybe that's why Pete has been so quiet lately? 

 

Pete, would you provide an update as to when we might see the upgrade go into effect?  Even a rough guess (+/- 3 months) would be appreciated. :(

 

Hopefully, it's already in the system it's just a question of when the ANZs will reflect it. <_<

 

-SK :P

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  • 1 month later...
...

 

There are 14 types of offensive damage ( If memory serves). There is also a defensive system for each offensive damage type.

 

...

 

 

For those of us who are role playing our empires, is there a way to get an idea of what these different dammage types are, and in which direction one should direct their efforts for research?

I'm not asking for a comprehensive listing of everything, here. Just something like; Doom dammage then research the Chaos path, etc.

 

I don't want to state what type of dammage that I'd like to dish out, as I may well embarass myself publicly...

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Here is a brief idea of each type of damage as well as the defence system.

 

Plasma Torpedoes, countered by Black sphere generation.

Best way of describing this is a big dangerous ball of plasma that has somehow been contained.

 

Projectile Weapons, countered by Deflectors

These come in a varity of different types, but all operate by throwing mass at the target, if you want to have a WWII type battleship in space these are the things to use.

 

Gravitonics, countered by Displacement

This can be described in a variety of ways, the end result however is that the target is ripped apart by gravitc forces, whether this is from a black hole appering in the middle of your ship or creative use of a tractor beam. :huh:

 

Energy Discharge, countered by ECM

The simplest way to describe this is to picture your ship being in the middle of a lightning storm.

 

Energy Disruptors, countered by Field Stabilization

Probably the closest thing you will find to no leathal wepons, Energy Disruptors simply disrupt your ships systems, and in some cases their crew as well. If heavy liquor was a ship weapon in this game it should be one of these weapons. :laugh:

 

Plasma Splash, countered by Flux Capacitance

Like Plasma Torpedoes, but with out the self guiding option.

 

Missiles, Fighters, Drones, countered by Maneuverbility and Point Defense

If the discription isn't self explaning then check the rules, this weapon class has to be the most discused option, as well as the longest ranged.

 

Particle Beams, countered by Meson Web

Atoms are accelerated to near light spead, causing and kinetic impact apon contact with the target, similar to lasers.

 

Matter Disruptors, countered by Molecular Pattern Stabilization

An interesting weapon class, these weapons work by getting your ships to destroy themselves.

 

Fusion Blasts, countered by Phase Inversion

I have no idea, I would guess at a more advanced form of Plasma weapons. :D

 

Coherent Beam Weapons, countered by Reflective Coating.

One of the staples of Sci-fi, are more comonly called Lasers.

 

Sonic Waves, countered by Screen

Destroy their targets by shacking them apart, may also have an affect upon the crew.

 

Minefields, countered by Sensors

While most peoples idea of a minefield is a large number of explosive devices scatered over an area, with the intention of keep others away. The Supernova minefields appear to work more like a very short ranged missle.

 

Energy Absorbers, countered by Tachyon Grid

These weapons drain the energy from their target.

 

Frost Bolts, countered by Thermal Regulation

The last of the various types of damages, these weapons work by dropping the temperature of their target quickly, causing both ship and crew to stop working before becomeing brittle and shatered.

 

Most of the damge catogories tech paths can be found when you first start (you start with Coherent, Fighters, Energy Disruptors, Gravitonics, Projectile and Plasma Splash. Most of the others will branch of from one of these.

 

A more detailed (and probably more accurate) description of what each weapon does can be found with that weapons ANZ. So far I have however found little difference between the amount of damage the different types of weapon will do when at the same tech level.

 

 

Sir Smeg :jawdrop:

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