AP

[SPGraves]

I am about to begin my first empire. Anyone care to share any hints on how many engine it takes per Ton of spacecraft to generate extra AP's? THe first two appear to be almost free....what do the next ones cost?

[ShadowKitsune]

APs are a function of total Engine Thrust versus total ship Tonnage with a minimum value of 2 APs.

 

APs = Total Engine Thrust / Total Tonnage

 

For the record, you won't be able to get more than 2 APs out of vessels using Mk I Nuclear Engines.

 

Hope that helps,

 

-SK

[WKE235]

Ummm .. I think you got the formula backwards.

 

It's APs = Total Engine Thrust / Total Ship Tonnage

 

Another way to look at it is .. How many engines do I need to get "X" AP

 

E = (AP * Base Weight) / (Thrust per Engine - Mass per Engine * AP)

 

where Base Weight is the ships weight with no engines (jump drives, yes, engines, no).

 

Some folks like to convert this into simple numbers based on the best engine they can build. All the engines I know of so far are Mass 100 tons. So AP / (Thrust - 100 * AP) can be figured out for all possible AP's for a type of engine.

 

For example, MK I Fusion engines are 1000 thrust. So, for AP 4 you get 4 / (1000 - 400) = 4 /' 600 = 1 / 150 .. or in other words you need 1 MK I Fusion engine for each 150 tons of base ship design to reach 4 AP. 5 AP would be 5 / (1000 - 500) = 1/100 ... or one Mk I Fusion engine for every 100 tons of ship to reach 5 AP.

[Pandaemonium]

Or, for Mk I Fusion Engines, each AP requires that 10% of the total mass be engine mass (100 tons mass/1000 tons thrust). For a 4 AP ship of 60,000 tons base mass, 40% of the total mass must be engines, leaving 60% of the total mass = the 60,000 tons of base mass. Therefore, there are 100,000 tons total mass and 40,000 tons of engines. At 100 tons/engine, that's 400 engines.

[SPGraves]

Thanks ..thats what I was curious about. For my own information though...was this data in the rules? Where whould I have looked to answer this question myself?

[ShadowKitsune]

I don't believe it was in the Rules. It was ferretted out by the players relatively early in the game. So to answer your question, you would have had to use the Trial & Error method with the NUD Order. Design assorted 10kTon ships with just Engines and Cargo Bays (don't build them, just design them) and look at your Ship Design Report to see what their AP values were. From there it's numbers crunching time ... This game isn't nicknamed "Spreadsheets in Space" for nothing.

 

FWIW - An ANZ of the Engine will give you its Thrust Value.

 

-SK

[hobknob]

Also FWIW I don't think it is worth building higher AP ships until you get to Mk III Nuclear engines or Mk I Fusion engines.

[Shade]

I agree, and even then it takes a lot of engines to even get 3 AP. Not sure of the thrust for the next levels up, but likely to be much easier to have greater than 2 AP ships then. Still, I am building AP 3 warships for their maneuvarability bonus with MK I Fusion Engines. I've got them "patrolling" via standing orders about my home system too with 3 orders/turn.

[RTGPete]

I just use the following formula to figure out how many engines to put on. This assumes 100 tons per engine. Just figure out the tonnage of the ship you've designed, before engines, and plug in that tonnage and the desired action points:

• [(# of engines needed) * (thrust output)] / [(ship tonnage before engines) + (100 * (# of engines needed))] = (action points desired)
  

Suppose you wanted to design a dedicated survey ship that looked like this and had 8 action points:

• 1 Mk IV Jump Survey Sensor (reported at 5,000 tons)
  
• 1 Nuclear Transwarp Drive (reported at 25,000 tons)
  
• 20,000 Fuel Tankage (20,000 tons)
  
• 1 Fuel Shuttle (600 tons)
  
• (#E) Mk I Fusion Engines (reported as delivering 1000 thrust at 100 tons @)
  

This would work out to

 

(#E) * 1000 = [ 50,600 tons + 100 * (#E) ] * 8

(#E) * 1000 = 404,800 tons + 800 * (#E)

(#E) = [ 404,800 + 800 * (#E) ] / 1000

(#E) = 404.8 + 0.8 * (#E)

(#E) * 0.2 = 404.8

(#E) = 404.8 / 0.2

(#E) = 2,024

 

So...that ship would require 2,024 Mk I Fusion Engines to give it 8 action points. That's a lot of engines, resulting in a final ship tonnage of 50,600 (ship systems) + 202,400 (the Mk I Fusion Engines) = 253,000.

 

Checking the work, action points are just # of engines times thrust output, divided by total ship tonnage. So...action points equals:

 

AP = 2,024 (# of engines) * 1000 (thrust output) / 253,000 (total ship tonnage)

AP = 8

 

It's a nice ship for SURVeying warp points - 8 AP and a Mk IV Jump Survey Sensor...but at 253,000 tons it's pricey. If it wants to use those 8 action points to warp a lot, the Fuel Tankage probably isn't enough. The single Fuel Shuttle is there just for emergencies, but it would only be able to limp home unless the captain felt like being placed on extended SKIM duty It might be wise to drop the desired 8 AP down to a more reasonable number (4 ?), add more Fuel Tankage or Fuel Shuttles, or just get Mk II Fusion Engines and end the debate

[AKO]

Hello Pete,

Where can I buy all these goodies? At the local starbar I didn't meet any traders that sell this.

Kind regards,

[crossroads]

How long does it standard take to research MK I Fusion engines, MK II fusion engines and Transwarp drive each?

[HumVie]

Assuming you have no tech bonus. Its roughly like this....

 

MK II Nuclear (500 thrust, weighs 100 tons) takes 12 turns with one research center(rc) and leads to two engine techs......MK III Nuclear Eng & MK I Fusion Engine.

 

MK III Nuclear Engine (1K thrust, weighs 100 tons) takes roughly 24 turns with 1 rc

and leads to....MK IV Nuclear Engine (2K Thrust, weighs 100 tons) takes roughly 36

turns at 1 rc.

 

Mk I Fusion Engine (1K thrust, weighs 100 tons) takes roughly 24 turns with 1 rc

and leads to MK II Fusion Engine (2K thrust, weighs 100 tons) takes roughly 36

turns at 1 rc.

 

All those above can be Slot #1 fast track research (i.e. using SRP).

 

Transwarp is a 3 turn research if you have no tech bonuses. However, you must

have first researched Improved and Advanced Fuel, Superconductors and MK I Force Shield.

 

Good Cheer,

Rick

[crossroads]

Thanks! So that whould mean that if a person has not saved srp's he has to research 12 + 24 + 36 + 3 = 75 turns before he has transwarp drive. Plus two to build them = 77 turns. As i have seen on this board people with many srp's could do it in 15. That means that you are dead meat if you did not save srp's.

[HumVie]

well actually its doing two seperare research tracks at the same time (again assuming no SRP and no tech bonuses).....

 

Track one

MK II Nuc Eng ----> MK I Fus Eng ----> Mk II Fus Eng

--12 rc---------------->24 rc---------------->36rc (total: 72 rc)

 

Track Two

Imp Fuel ----> Adv Fuel-------------->---

--12rc------------>18rc---------------------\

Superconductor----MK I Force Sheild------->Nuclear Transwarp

--3 rc----------------->12 rc---------------------->3rc

(longest path for Nuc Transwarp is 30 rc)

 

I am doing this off the top of my head so may be off a turn or two on the

longer research items.

 

Good Cheer,

Rick

[ShadowKitsune]

Thanks! So that whould mean that if a person has not saved srp's he has to research 12 + 24 + 36 + 3 = 75 turns before he has transwarp drive. Plus two to build them = 77 turns. As i have seen on this board people with many srp's could do it in 15. That means that you are dead meat if you did not save srp's.

Your not dead meat. The races with a lot of SRPs do not have the racial advantages of those that don't have a lot of SRPs. This is not to say that the high SRP races don't start the game with a distinct advantage. It's just that their advantage dissipates with time. Eventually, they run out of SRPs while your racial advantages persist.

 

I don't want to restate my rather lengthy opinion on the SRP situation here, since it is somewhat off topic and can be found elsewhere on this board. Suffice it to say that I wish that the nature of Racial Points, Saved Racial Points and Research & Development were better defined and described in the Rulebook from the outset.

 

-SK