EternusIV Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 For the life of me, I can't think of a situation where trading goods...like "Advanced Steel" or "Improved Construction Materials" etc is very cost effective....especially if you design high AP cargo ships designed to carry Millions of tons of the stuff between two homeworlds (even if you have a little dump-off depot) separated by more than 6 systems. Under what circumstances is it worth it? Five or less systems apart between major industrial centers? Or is it just easier to set up a 'trading world' at some midpoint between you and your neighbor - splitting costs and eventually creating a centralized industrail base? Has anyone else given consideration to this quandry recently? Costs to consider for straight trade routes ============================ * Fuel, Cargo Bays, Gobs of Engines for high AP routes, Transwarp Drives, Time, Picket Ships to Protect trade routes....(others I'm missing?) Trading FINISHED goods, ie "Engines" and "Weapons", certainly seems worth the investment in most instances. Perhaps we all need to hope for Planetary Cargo Gates (I think thats what they are called) until then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Oh yes - lots of thought given to this...... Given that the ratio of tonnage required for 'equality' between High Level Resources (Steel, Improved Steel, Electronics, Advanced Processed Radioactives, etc) and finished goods is 5:1 (apart from a very few technologies that may contain a small error...), then your surmise is likely to be right - it isn't really worthwhile, but could become viable with higher and higher AP merchant ships on regular runs. Certainly over time, everyone should be able to research even the Advanced Resources and the actual need for it to happen would be minimised. I suspect, however, that there would never actually be a need..... Let's assume that someone wishes to trade with me, for say a Nuclear Transwarp Drive, but that he has nothing I actually want. Now, whilst he could bring me lots of electronics (sic) in trade, it would be far more economic to bring Cargo Bays or Fuel Tankage - which are things I'd always need and would otherwise have to build for myself. Now depending on the actual trade relationship and who's doing the carrying, it might be quite reasonable for a reasonable profit to be made..... So, offered: 1 x Nuclear Transwarp Drive (brand new and still in its original packaging) - G$13,250,000 (the Galactic Raw Resource Equivalent {GRRE}, or G$, cost of production). If the equivalent cost of a single Cargo Bay is G$150, then a purely 'fair' exchange would be 88,334 Cargo Bays for one NTWD. It might therefore be reasonable if 150,000 Cargo Bays were offered in exchange if I delivered over a relatively shoprt distance. It's only an example, but you get the idea. This game does allow the wide application of a trading network, with the associated risk of piracy, let alone possible 'tolls' for transit across other empires.... Every item I know of has been costed and G$ 'prices' can be made available on request However, they're also not difficult to work out from the items consituent parts which are all costed based upon the Raw Resources necessary to produce them.... Chief Trader to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Guys the way to do "trade" best, is to set up a colony in your allies HW system and then build for him what ever he wants, just have him supply you with all the needed resources. Thus you build anything he wants, he just has to OC to your pop stockpiles and then your city builds it for him, then the following turn he LC and gets what-ever he needs. You both set this up in each others HW systems and needs are both met! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Actually it can be quite difficult to establish a colony big enough to do anything worth while. With the best stuff that is available today you get about 1000 input for each industry. Even if all of the base materials to make the required item are provided it would be very slow to make anything in any quantity. Say you wanted 5000 Mk III Fusion engines it would take 2500 industries just to make them. Eventually it may be possible to have colocated colonies, but in most cases it will be built at each respective homeworld and then shipped. For small one off items like a dozen sensors or something then the coloy will work, but for true, useful trade freighters are going to be the key factor. The colony you build also needs to be on your trading partners homeworld, that way you can build transport centers. Otherwise you will have to rely on freighters sitting overhead to LC an OC into the respective pop groups. Now with respect to trade, it will be efficient to transport base materials if you don't have anything else of value. You may also have to work some sort of profit margin into the equation. I would happily return with only 20% of cargo being used if I could get a bunch of advanced engines or sensors or something. As far as distance goes, I kind of like whatever is reachable in a single turn with best ships. That means a distance of 20 right now using Mk III Fusion engines and will mean a greater distance with better engines. The only reason I could see to setting up a trading world is for those folks who are not so trusting of one another or you just can't get through that I warp point in a nexus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted June 14, 2004 Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Guys the way to do "trade" best, is to set up a colony in your allies HW system and then build for him what ever he wants, just have him supply you with all the needed resources. Thus you build anything he wants, he just has to OC to your pop stockpiles and then your city builds it for him, then the following turn he LC and gets what-ever he needs. You both set this up in each others HW systems and needs are both met! Yes, but that's not trade - that's really fairly close total allies sharing production and technology.... I'm starting to think of trade over long distance with a few people in the chain - as technology becomes ever more diverse...... Chief Trader to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted June 14, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2004 Likewise, Ur-Lord I also saw mention of the "p"-word. Once these trade routes get going, it will be imperative to protect them. Should make for some entertaining times ahead! (insert eye-patch smilie with knife in its teeth) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Likewise, Ur-Lord I also saw mention of the "p"-word. Once these trade routes get going, it will be imperative to protect them. Should make for some entertaining times ahead! (insert eye-patch smilie with knife in its teeth) :lol: Oh yes, I get the impression that there are some really nefarious characters out there who either: a) want to explore the 'other' side of the trading network; or are just the more usual, and actually more tedious, domination types..... This game has the potential to offer so much more.... The Star League - hub of the galaxy's trade network....... Chief Trader to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Ur-Lord Tedric, Having a allies pop center on ones HW, and one of yours on theirs will allow for the greatest tech exchange that one might need or want. The allies build for each other the desired number and tech that are specific to the others needs. It is a give and take relationship, providing great support for one another. Plus if my allie supplies all the resources to build tech that only I can build but he can not, then I can just build it for him with no cost, except for them in the future returning the same favor That works for me... Tyean Corrella First Citizen of the T'Aleen Empire Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Ur-Lord Tedric, Having a allies pop center on ones HW, and one of yours on theirs will allow for the greatest tech exchange that one might need or want. The allies build for each other the desired number and tech that are specific to the others needs. It is a give and take relationship, providing great support for one another. Plus if my allie supplies all the resources to build tech that only I can build but he can not, then I can just build it for him with no cost, except for them in the future returning the same favor That works for me... Tyean Corrella First Citizen of the T'Aleen Empire Yes, First Citizen.... We understand that, but you're talking about sharing your technology with a total ally, one who is close enough, and you trust enough, to do so. That's fine and great, but that's not what we're talking about...... We're talking about TRADE, probably across long distances.... Take for example 3 empire's in a chain.... A --> B --> C Where, for argument's sake each separation is 10AP (9 jumps and an NM). Now with NTWD and Mk II Fusion engines, a 10AP freighter is quite reasonable in terms of cost. So if empire C wants something that A has got, which B can broker, then a trade can fairly well be organised. There is no particular reason that A & C even need to be aware of each other...... Organising things in the middle, providing safe trade routes and environment, there's no reason Empire B can't make a reasonable profit on each deal.... And, I'm even horrified to think it, a naughty Pirate (Empire P) may have an Empire B as a broker for trading things they've captured.......it just depends what sort of broker Empire B is??? Now the Star League, with their avowed intention to seek peaceful trade throughout the galaxy, would always be an honest broker.... Chief Trader to Ur-Lord Tedric, Esteemed Broker and Economic Advisor to the Galaxy at Large.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted June 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 T'Aleen No doubt having an ally squatting and breeding on your homeworld is an efficient manner of getting alien goods into the production stream. Setting up such an operation has its own costs, though....both financially and strategically Your method raises another question - when it is more efficient to simply trade finished goods as opposed to establishing intermediate (or in your ideal situation - immediate) trading colonies? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Aleen Empire Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 Hmmm....for me The best situation that seems to work best, is to simply set up colonies on each of your allies HWs and they also on yours. THEN as the need or tech arrises, you but transfer the required resources to that allies pop center and then they build the tech for you and transfer it back to you. The real end result is a trading partner should become a allie in time and you should learn to trust that person and become close allies. This whole barter/payment thing doesn't work because there is no Gallatic Standard for payment/cash. I say forget that and just make friends/allies and trade tech as the need arrises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted June 15, 2004 Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 The best trading situation would arise when 3-4 postions take out another and then split the conquered homeworld between them. Now everybody has a decent economic base to build stuff for the allies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternusIV Posted June 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2004 :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted June 16, 2004 Report Share Posted June 16, 2004 Actually it can be quite difficult to establish a colony big enough to do anything worth while. With the best stuff that is available today you get about 1000 input for each industry. True, Improved Industrial Complexes with 3rd Gen Industrial Science crank out 975 tons per turn. But that can be enough. For example, lets say you set up a colony in the system next to Ally X. With your super colonial liner, you transported the materials and POP to set down a colony of 400 POP in one turn. This included enough Improved Constuction Material to build 400 or so Improved IC. This is a very achievable build (I have two liners that can transport up to 400 POP each, and with transwarp drives they can move quicker than you think). Now, each turn Ally X will drop off on your colony the base resources needed to construct say a NTWD. 75,000 Gas so you can create the 25,000 Advanced Fuel he has yet to research. He could drop the Electronics, Steel, and other raw materials as well (including Improved Electronics and Synthetics, maybe even some of the manufactured items). With this one colony you could easily produce the NTWD for your ally each turn. Heck, if he drops the Force Shields and Jump drives prebuilt, you could be cloase to squeezing out 2 NTWD per turn. When trading, initial colonies will be small. But they can pack a wallop and produce items as long as your ally provides the raw materials to whatever point they can. The more provided, the less your IC's need to struggle, and the more of the desired item to trade you can produce. Later on in this example, your ally could be dropping Iron, Industrial Chemicals, Gaseous Elements and the like so you could produce Advanced Steel or other items (they have yet to research), and use them to build something simple like a Type B Plasma Torpedo for trade. And as you drop more and more POP, the number of items you can build for trade grows ... as long as you trust your ally to feed the maw, so to speak. And they will eventually research to Advanced items, by which time they can provide those in return for multiple Type C Plasma Torpedo's. Trading can be very worthwhile, as long as you work together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted June 17, 2004 Report Share Posted June 17, 2004 This whole barter/payment thing doesn't work because there is no Gallatic Standard for payment/cash. I say forget that and just make friends/allies and trade tech as the need arrises. If that works for you, then fine..... But I think it misses a whole opportunity. I already have a costing methodology that allows every item in the game to be given a logical price based upon its production value in terms of Raw Resources. Not only can anything you'd wish to 'trade' be given a value, so can the complete ships needed to transport the things - it's very easy to work out the complete costs of doing anything on these terms.... There's only no Galactic Standard, because 'We' haven't agreed one yet... I'm more than happy to share my production with total allies, but I'm also happy to trade with people who aren't; empires who aren't keen on wanting me to plant a colony on their HW, or perhaps not even want me to know where it is. I'm not going to discriminate against a quite reasonable worry about sharing too much knowledge.... Trade could be alive and well as much as we want it to be - and I'm sure the pirates would like it too.... Chief Trader to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.