Sakarissa Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 I sent in an e-mail to RTG on this about a week ago and have not received a response. In light of this I've decided to put out my question to the player base on this board. I've been working on a spreadsheet to help me figure out all my strengths for any troop unit I build. That way I can plug in all the numbers of divisions I have and it will give me all the totals for all the different strength fields that those units have. I have found some interesting discrepancies. Note the following TAC: TAC: 2 ** Imperial Army Report: Planetary Defense Force # 2 ** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Guerrilla ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (the following are base values, before any lifeform modifiers are taken into account) Broken Terrain [2700] Ferret Excavator Tank, Halftrack, Mole Burrower Tank Camouflage [800] Chameleon Cloak, Sneak Suit Close Combat [6600] Ablative Armor, Battle Armor, Battle Dress, Battleaxe, Chainsaw Club, Combat Environment Suit, Dagger, Flak Jacket, Heavy Thermic Lance K54 Fragmentation Grenade, M75 High Explosive Grenade, Sonic Mace Spear, Sword, Thermic Lance, Vibroaxe, War Hammer Small Arms [2000] Carbine, Gauss Rifle, Harpoon Gun, Heavy Carbine, Heavy Laser Rifle Heavy Machinegun, Heavy Shotgun, Laser Rifle, Semiautomatic Pistol Shotgun Subterranean [46500] Ferret Excavator Tank, Mole Burrower Tank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This TAC was done on a single unit and no leaders were present. I've been doing this to get base readings for my spreadsheet. According to my ANZs of the above ground techs, the numbers I get are as follows: Broken Terrain = 3600 (100+1000+2500) Camouflage = 400 (100+300) Close Combat = 14,900 (100+3000+1000+100+100+100+3000+100+100+300+300+100+3000+ 100+100+100+300+3000) Small Arms = 2000 (100+300+100+300+300+300+300+100+100+100) Subterranean = 23,250 (750+22500) The comparison is as follows: TAC vs ANZ total Broken Terrain = 2700 vs 3600 (TAC total 75% of ANZ) Camouflage = 800 vs 400 (TAC total 200% of ANZ) Close Combat = 6600 vs 14,900 (TAC total 44.3% of ANZ) Small Arms = 2000 vs 2000 (actually equal ) Subterranean = 46,500 vs 23,250 (TAC total 200% of ANZ) A fellow player has noticed similiar discrepancies on the TACs he's done lately. Either it's an error between the ANZ values and how the code adds them up or each combat unit has a set of internal modifiers to the strengths they have. For instance the Guerrilla unit has access to the Broken Terrain strength but only at 75% of the value. If it's an error in the code, it needs to be addressed. If it's the case of the internal unit modifiers, then that needs to be documented in the new rule book somewhere. Sakarissa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TErnest Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 I sent in an e-mail to RTG on this about a week ago and have not received a response. In light of this I've decided to put out my question to the player base on this board. I've been working on a spreadsheet to help me figure out all my strengths for any troop unit I build. That way I can plug in all the numbers of divisions I have and it will give me all the totals for all the different strength fields that those units have. I have found some interesting discrepancies. Note the following TAC: TAC: 2 ** Imperial Army Report: Planetary Defense Force # 2 ** ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1 Guerrilla ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (the following are base values, before any lifeform modifiers are taken into account) Broken Terrain [2700] Ferret Excavator Tank, Halftrack, Mole Burrower Tank Camouflage [800] Chameleon Cloak, Sneak Suit Close Combat [6600] Ablative Armor, Battle Armor, Battle Dress, Battleaxe, Chainsaw Club, Combat Environment Suit, Dagger, Flak Jacket, Heavy Thermic Lance K54 Fragmentation Grenade, M75 High Explosive Grenade, Sonic Mace Spear, Sword, Thermic Lance, Vibroaxe, War Hammer Small Arms [2000] Carbine, Gauss Rifle, Harpoon Gun, Heavy Carbine, Heavy Laser Rifle Heavy Machinegun, Heavy Shotgun, Laser Rifle, Semiautomatic Pistol Shotgun Subterranean [46500] Ferret Excavator Tank, Mole Burrower Tank ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This TAC was done on a single unit and no leaders were present. I've been doing this to get base readings for my spreadsheet. According to my ANZs of the above ground techs, the numbers I get are as follows: Broken Terrain = 3600 (100+1000+2500) Camouflage = 400 (100+300) Close Combat = 14,900 (100+3000+1000+100+100+100+3000+100+100+300+300+100+3000+ 100+100+100+300+3000) Small Arms = 2000 (100+300+100+300+300+300+300+100+100+100) Subterranean = 23,250 (750+22500) The comparison is as follows: TAC vs ANZ total Broken Terrain = 2700 vs 3600 (TAC total 75% of ANZ) Camouflage = 800 vs 400 (TAC total 200% of ANZ) Close Combat = 6600 vs 14,900 (TAC total 44.3% of ANZ) Small Arms = 2000 vs 2000 (actually equal ) Subterranean = 46,500 vs 23,250 (TAC total 200% of ANZ) A fellow player has noticed similiar discrepancies on the TACs he's done lately. Either it's an error between the ANZ values and how the code adds them up or each combat unit has a set of internal modifiers to the strengths they have. For instance the Guerrilla unit has access to the Broken Terrain strength but only at 75% of the value. If it's an error in the code, it needs to be addressed. If it's the case of the internal unit modifiers, then that needs to be documented in the new rule book somewhere. Sakarissa Hmm. There does seem to be a problem here. First things, first, though. You have a couple of math errors in your example, Sakarissa. Your Close Combat ANZ total should be 6600, not 14,900. Combat Environment Suit and War Hammer are 300 each, not 3000. And Sonic Mace is 100, not 3000. Now on to the problem... Here are the values that I would have expected on the TAC for a single Guerrilla unit, based upon my understanding of the ground combat system: Broken Terrain: 3600 * 4 = 14400 Camouflage: 400 * 2 = 800 Close Combat: 6600 * 1 = 6600 Small Arms: 2000 * 1 = 2000 Subterranean: 23250 * 2 = 46500 Note that all values except Broken Terrain are exactly the TAC values that you got, based upon ANZ data. The value for Broken Terrain IS way out of whack, though! Note also that the sum of all multipliers is 10. (4+2+1+1+2) With a very few notable exeptions (i.e. Fortress) this is always the case. I am not so sure that the internal combat strengths of various ground units should be in the rule book, any more than the ANZs for all breakthroughs should be. Both were clearly designed by Pete to be in the realm of things to discover through play...just as you are doing with your current round of TACs. TErnest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SargonKingOfSlith Posted May 24, 2007 Report Share Posted May 24, 2007 Here are the values that I would have expected on the TAC for a single Guerrilla unit, based upon my understanding of the ground combat system:Broken Terrain: 3600 * 4 = 14400 Camouflage: 400 * 2 = 800 Close Combat: 6600 * 1 = 6600 Small Arms: 2000 * 1 = 2000 Subterranean: 23250 * 2 = 46500 TErnest Each ground division type has multipliers in certain tactical areas. The total multipliers add up to 10 for all divisions except the Fortress, it adds up to 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Nope, everything looks fine for this unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TErnest Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Nope, everything looks fine for this unit. Thank you, Laserworlf, for forcing me to reexamine my analysis. The corrected values are listed below: Broken Terrain: 3600 * 1 = 3600 Camouflage: 400 * 2 = 800 Close Combat: 6600 * 1 = 6600 Small Arms: 2000 * 1 = 2000 Subterranean: 23250 * 2 = 46500 The listed multipliers do not add to 10, because Sakarissa lacks ground techs in areas where this division has ground capabilities. Now, if you assume that the correct TAC value of Halftrack is 100 (rather than the 1000 value that both Sakarissa and I got on our last ANZ) then the division's strength in this area would be: Broken Terrain: 2700 * 1 = 2700 That is exactly the value that Sakarissa got on his TAC. So the only remaining potiential source of GM error would be the list Broken Terrain value of the Halftrack. Sorry for any earlier confusion I may have caused. TErnest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Nope, even the 1000 halftrack value is correct. This unit tacs spot on what it should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TErnest Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Nope, even the 1000 halftrack value is correct. This unit tacs spot on what it should be Laserwolf, Care to share your analysis, for the edification of all? Or are you just trying rile the natives with unsupported nonsense? TErnest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted May 25, 2007 Report Share Posted May 25, 2007 Each unit has internal modifiers that determine the rating. A unit that is only good for a single TAC will be really good at that TAC but a unit that covers lots of TAC's will have lower ratings all around but will cover more areas. I can't find the error in my calculation to correct the situation mentioned, but I have gotten armies of 100's of units to come out spot on with the reported values. I doubt there is rampant discrepency in the program, but there may be one or two not pointed to Pete already. It is really quite easy with the current information provided on the ANZ's. It get's much more difficult when extrapolating from the results like us old timers had to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cestvel Posted May 26, 2007 Report Share Posted May 26, 2007 Broken terrain Stats are just fine. Check your values on Mole Burrower Tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakarissa Posted May 29, 2007 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 Thanks to one and all for enlightening me on the TAC order. Now I have another question. I read the ORB command and it states from the example text: Sensors aboard Fleet # 91 are aimed at the Population Groups of the world that it orbits. The quantity and type of Installations in each Population Group are revealed along with some indication of the technology levels of those Pop Groups. I was thinking of using the ORB command to get a reading of troop strengths. From reading up on that order, it seems all I would get is an Installations list for each pop group and no indications at all for the presence or lack of troop units in any armies on that world. Aside from actually dropping troops onto a world and executing a GATK, is there any other way of determining if there is a defending army and how many divisions are located therein? Sakarissa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cestvel Posted May 29, 2007 Report Share Posted May 29, 2007 Only one: Ask the former or current owner of that world kindly to give you the desired information Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Only one: Ask the former or current owner of that world kindly to give you the desired information There is nothing to provide any such figure until you invade. Here are sample scans of one empires HW (the ORB and PMAP). No troop information at all. Also note -- you are not told how many Shipyard Slips exist on the planet. But the ORB order does provide details on just about everything else. Add in a GEO and maybe a CSV and your picture is mostly complete. Well, except for troops. And Shipyard slips. And what they are building (unless you brought along spies of course). PMAP: 235, 0 235th Death Dealer #235 located at xxxxxxx conducts a detailed Planet Map of the main planet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Temperature(Kelvin) Axial Tilt Gravity Atmosphere Ocean ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 215 26 3.3 Ammonia Liquid Ammonia Mountains 32%, Liquid Gases 31%, Liquid Ammonia 30%, Crystal Plains 5%, Barren Rock 1%, Tundra 1% Microorganisms on this world are virtually nonexistent. Pollution is nowhere to be seen, while Radiation levels are undetectable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pop Group # 27864: 494,888 population units, governed by xxxx ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pop Group # 26412: 44 population units, governed by xxxx ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pop Group # 29021: 68,901 population units, governed by xxxx ORB: 235, 0 235th Death Dealer #235 located at xxxx, conducts a detailed Orbital Reconnaissance of the main planet ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- PopGroup Population Governing Empire ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 27864 494,888 xxxx > 3501 Advanced Stripmining Complex(s), 1 Astronomical Observatory, 3000 Field Fortification(s), 32 Fuel Purification Refinery(s), > 4 Hydroelectric Power Plant(s), 1 Imperial Army Base, 1 Imperial Army Boot Camp, 1 Imperial Army Combat Infantry School, > 1 Imperial Army Command Base, 1 Imperial Army Depot, 1 Imperial Army Headquarters, 1 Imperial Army Quadrant Base, > 1 Imperial Army Ranger School, 1 Imperial Army Sector Base, 1 Imperial Army Sector Depot, 1 Imperial Guard AIT School, > 1 Imperial Guard Boot Camp, 1 Imperial Guard Green Beret School, 100 Imperial Information Ministry(s), > 100 Imperial Intelligence Service Complex(s), 1 Imperial Marine Advanced Training Base, 1 Imperial Marine Boot Camp, > 1 Imperial Marine SEAL School, 1 Imperial Museum, 1 Imperial Naval Academy, 1 Imperial Navy Military College, > 1 Imperial Navy Training Base, 15 Imperial Palace(s), 50 Imperial Penal Colony(s), 100 Imperial Port Authority Complex(s), > 1 Imperial Science Center, 1 Imperial Science Institute, 1 Imperial Science Lab, 1 Imperial Science Outpost, > 1 Imperial Science Station, 100 Imperial Secret Police Facility(s), 1 Imperial Sports Complex, 1 Imperial Zoo, > 45526 Improved Industrial Complex(s), 24812 Improved Stripmining Complex(s), 367014 Industrial Complex(s), > 1 Linear Accelerator, 6 Provincial Capitol Administration Center(s), 1 Science Center, 1 Science Institute, > 1 Science Lab, 1 Science Outpost, 1 Science Station, 1100 Shipyard(s), 48330 Stripmining Complex(s), > 1 Top Gun School, 1 Transportation Center ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 26412 44 xxxxx > 26 Hydroelectric Power Plant(s), 1 Transportation Center ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 29021 68,901 xxxxx > 249 Cathedral(s), 8952 Chemical Refinery(s), 10251 Crystal Refinery(s), 6904 Gas Refinery(s), 9 Grand Cathedral(s), > 2 Hydroelectric Power Plant(s), 250 Imperial Administration Center(s), 6670 Iron Mine(s), 7275 Light Metals Mine(s), > 7821 Lumber Mill(s), 100 Mission(s), 3796 Petrochemical Refinery(s), 6495 Precious Metals Mine(s), > 250 Provincial Capitol Administration Center(s), 9347 Rare Elements Mine(s), 248 Shrine(s), 250 Temple(s), > 31 Textiles Plant(s), 1 Transportation Center ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Special exploration discoveries spotted at this world include: a deserted Stripmining Complex a gloomy Grand Cathedral dedicated to Vladchek the Dark One a radioactive Geothermal Coretap Station a ruined Fuel Refinery a ruined Weather Control Station a smashed Defense Fortress a smashed planetary defense battery a wondrous Grand Cathedral dedicated to Grandillon the Trickster a wrecked alien Astronomical Observatory a wrecked Astronomical Observatory an alien Cloning Center filled with bizarre creatures an Imperial Port Authority Complex historical notes and evidence in various Imperial libraries and archaeological dig sites the remains of an Imperial University the remains of an Industrial Complex Your teams estimate that this world has seen its share of explorers searching about for interested alien item Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cestvel Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Odd, really odd. The Power Plants in the pop centers with the industry and mines would *not* be enough to power the mines. And one Center only has Power Plants????? How do they transfer teh power? I was of the impression, that power was used per pop center, not per planet. Really odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laserwolf Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Clearly a fabrication... Note multiple "undedicated" Grand Cathedrals as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Odd, really odd. The Power Plants in the pop centers with the industry and mines would *not* be enough to power the mines. And one Center only has Power Plants????? How do they transfer teh power? I was of the impression, that power was used per pop center, not per planet. Really odd. The GEO for this planet was not provided above But the owner has significantly improved the planet (quite impressive really) and it how has a Hydroelectric Potential of 3092. That's right, 3092. Here is the listing. I do not have the details on what mix of items (ICE, DCS, other) was used to accomplish this. But the numbers are something everyone can shoot for: GEO: 235, 0 235th Death Dealer #235 located at xxxxx, conducts a detailed Geological Survey of the main planet Resource Yield ratings are listed following each entry, with high Yield values being desirable. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hydroelectric Potential (3092), Ghuran Demonblood (2110), Crystals (2075), Industrial Chemicals (1984), > Rare Elements (1915), Light Metals (1781), Lumber (1708), Gaseous Elements (1474), Iron (1380), > Precious Metals (1358), Mineral Fertilizers (1356), Petrochemicals (824), Water (770), Coal (767), > Gemstones (21) Since each Hydro plant can put out 62,840 power .. well just a couple in each space can pretty much power everything. Note that the dedicated Grand Cathedrals located belong to Vladchek the Dark One and Grandillon the Trickster. Which I laughed at when I saw as it might explain a few things.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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