Eldred Posted September 12, 2003 Report Share Posted September 12, 2003 Nope, improved fuel is certainly not there as I haven't researched it yet but can still build the Fuel Distillation Complex. I am fairly convinced it is just 2G Civ Eng & Imp CM, just wanted someone to confirm this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KOTEC Posted September 13, 2003 Report Share Posted September 13, 2003 Eldred, Confirm that Fuel Distillation was developed when Imp CM researched. 2G Civ Eng researched at this stage but not 3G Civ Eng or of course Imp Fuel. While I can't prove your theory I support it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Xaar Posted September 14, 2003 Report Share Posted September 14, 2003 I learned how to build the "Deep Core Heatsink" this turn. I have all the 2nd Gen Sciences (finally finished 2nd Gen Planetary Eng. this turn) and this opened (also have Imp. ConMat). Anyone know what this thing does? Lord Xaar The Ring of Vheissu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Lord Xar - The deep Core heat sink increases your temperature range to +50 (from +30). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Subterranean City - safe, clean and affordable housing for your colonists, with the added benefit of being sealed from harsh atmospheric and planetary surface conditions....blah blah.... Cost: 25k Advanced CM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Confirmed. The Fuel Distillation Complex is Improved CM and 2G Civ. There's another fuel complex 2x as efficient that you get from Adv. CM and 3G Civ. The Fuel Distillation Complex is a nice installation however, being 25x as efficient as ordinary fuel refineries (actually slightly less due to the cost of 2 petroleum per 250 fuel.) Improved fuel is not a prereq. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 "Orbital crystal refinery 500 improved CM's to construct. uses no power soaks up 50 raw materials and spits out 10 improved refined crystals." Am I smoking something stupid, or does this facility take well over 150 turns to pay for itself?! 500 Improved CM's costs 1000 Improved Timber + 500 Improved Steel and spits out 10 Improved Refined Crystals per turn at a cost 50 RR's?! I understand it doesn't consume power, but there is something wrong with this picture... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanon Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 150 Turns! What are you smoking. A base Strip produces 1000 raw, 9 strips = 9000 raw, 36 IC's to make 900 Crystal and 3.6 IC's to make 300 improved refined crystal. Total installations 48.6. Or 2 Stripmine = 2000 raw, 40 Orbitals = 400 improved refined crystals. Total installations 42 and 1/3 more improved refined crystal. With improvements to IC's at 30% bonus it would take 12 stripmines and 40.6 IC's to make 400 improved crystals. Long Live Emanon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanon Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Now with that said. Once you get improved IC's (3 times as good as an IC). Your cost would be 12 stripmines and 17.6 IIC's or 29.6 installations making the Orbital Crystal Refinery absolutely worthless (especially as IIC's cost 500 improved CM's). Perhaps later when Adv IC's come about you will have a ton of improved CM's that you need to burn along with people as you now have androids, but that is at least 6 months out for me Long Live Emanon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Are you forgetting the initial cost of the facility itself? As I said in my previous post, the OCR costs 500 Improved CM's and outputs 10 Improved Refined Crystals per turn at a cost of 50 RR. Sure, if you look at the RR cost versus the output per turn it looks great. But 500 Improved CM's is 45000 RR in resources, for a facility that outputs 250 RR (300 - 50) in resources per turn?! That's 180 turns exactly before it pays for itself. Over 7 years of game time?! Another way to look at it is how does it compare to making ordinary crystal refineries? Depending on yield, ordinary mines will produce around 200-400 level 1 resources each, or the equivalent of say 100 level 2 resources, with no material cost. So an ordinary crystal mine 1) costs the same to build as the OCR, 2) outputs on average 10x the amount of resources, and 3) requires no resources once it is built. (There's also some cost in industrial capacity to convert from crystals to refined crystals but it isn't substantial). I understand that the OCR requires no crystal yield and no power, but sorry, these factors do not make up for its inefficiency. Colony mines will pay for themselves in 20-25 turns, not 180. Once again, it's early here and I've had no coffee, so if I've made an error, and I probably have because I can't believe Pete would design it this way, then please point it out. - Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emanon Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 You are correct in the basic's of the game 45000 raw = 4500 iron/lumber = 1500 steel/timber (or impr refined crystal) = 150 turns in payback. By all means colony mines are worth a lot more. Overall this is a worthless installation, especially as you get better production installations and overall bonues. But there are a number of worthless installations out there as well TTC, DCHS. Perhaps some will have some vaule should we get a better power producing installation, but at this point they are worthless. Long Live Emanon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Coal Mines are pretty inefficient once you can afford to build a Fission plant, so some installations have built-in obsolescence. There is a cost associated with the Industries (converting Raw to Improved Refined Crystals). If the cost of building Orbital Crystal Refineries is counted, then the cost of the Industries has to be considered as well. You could have converted those Industrial Complexes into Stripminers, but you didn't. That represents an opportunity cost even if you just leave everything as it is. Further, converting to the vastly superior Improved Industrial Complexes has a severe cost. If you spent 4 turns building nothing but Improved Industrial Complexes to realize their superior efficiency, that's 4 turns of payoff that has to be considered in the industrial production of Improved Refined Crystals (versus Orbital Crystal Refineries) calculation. The more time you spend gaining that efficiency, the less real production of Improved Refined Crystals (or anything else for that matter) that you're gaining. It's hard to beat mining Crystals right out of the ground. Orbital Crystal Refineries burn no Power and are more efficient than regular Industrial Complexes, but need to be built from other produced items. Regular Industrial Complexes are slow but steady. Improving on the efficiency of those Industrial Complexes takes effort and time, and will eventually surpass the OCR efficiency (but the time needed to build up IIC's has to be considered in that calculation). Of course, while building better industries, or trying to improve your efficiency in Crystal production by rolling down the industrial path....some bad boy with a 20million ton warfleet might show up. While you were fooling around with industries, he was building warships.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Thus my Bastion Thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clan Elder 'Keen Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Hahah, earlier I was going to add a comment like.... "Well 2.2 million tons of bastions should handle that!" but decided the other thread was the place to discuss that issue. :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadMartinB Posted September 17, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Ughhhh...The Bastion scared me...There is a HUGE amount of plate on there. I feel like a musket armed soldier facing a heavily armed knight but instead of 1/8" of steel he has 4". Soldier: M'Lord, I have a shot Captain: Take it... Soldier: "BOOOMMMM".....Pang, Tink richochet... Captain: Ahhhhhh I've been shot. __________ If a Bastion is 9x in Defense and it has 300,000 standard Plate that means 2.7M armor. Yikes... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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