Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 No comment on detecting fleets at non co-located positions. I couldn't resist - this is an absolutely great one liner! Mark <OOC> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 I received some general questions concerning space combat and wanted to post the answers here: I would very much like to add the descriptions of the various weapons and some other ship systems to the battle printouts. For example, give the description for Light Fusion Beams in the battle results when they appear somewhere in the battle, so that you can see what sort of weapons are being used against you. I'd also like to display some sort of chart showing the offensive and defensive effectiveness of the weapons involved in a by-side level. This would be particularly useful in showing how effective your defensive systems were against the appropriate enemy weapons. It would also be very handy in showing the offensive weapon categories such as Coherent Beam, Gravitonic, Energy Disruptor and so on that being used. This would give you a much better idea regarding the defensive systems that you should employ in future battles against a particular enemy. Battles run round-by-round in that each side gets to fire its weapons simultaneously, but it's not exactly ship-by-ship like how the old SN II system worked. Firepower and defenses are summed and then distributed over the enemy based on a lot of factors. Fire control is a good example: if you had no Fire Control whatsoever (from any source, including ship systems and racial bonus/leaders), your firepower would get distributed over an extremely small number of enemy ships (generally just one in this case) per round. That's great if you want to kill ships, but exceedingly dangerous (to you) if the enemy has a lot of screening vessels because you could easily get a lot of overkill and therefore wasted firepower. If you only had one ship on your side, it could still spread its firepower out over multiple targets if it had a good Fire Control rating. If the enemy only has one ship, your Fire Control wouldn't matter because that enemy ship would take all of your firepower in any event. When a battle is initiated, every fleet at the battle site is pulled in and two sides are determined. It is possible but unlikely that a particular empire's fleets are excluded entirely from the battle. Generally this could occur when two empires are shooting at each other but are both allied to the third, who is not otherwise hostile toward anybody. That empire would normally have to be put on one side or the other, but the alliance situation creates a conflict and he sits it out. Most of the time this doesn't happen, but it's a possibility. If you have four fleets at a battle site, three with aggressive ROE settings and the fourth is a peaceful explorer, and an alien ship shows up, all of the fleets at that location will be brought into the battle. The worst ROE for each empire is used to see if the battle goes hot. If it does, every fleet is brought into the battle. This includes the "peaceful" (ROE-wise--that "Explorer" could conceivably have weapons) explorer. You therefore cannot exclude a fleet from a battle--if it's at the site, it's involved. If it happened any other way, players could exploit the system and give a fleet a non-aggressive ROE setting just to keep it out of a battle where he had other fleets with aggressive settings. Example: you have 10 Destroyers in one fleet with a "Y" setting, and 150 Battle Dreadnoughts in another fleet with a "Q" setting. An alien with a non-aggressive "Q" setting shows up. Just because your Destroyers were the aggressors does not mean that you can keep your Battle Dreadnoughts out of the action, hiding them or otherwise somehow making them invulnerable to battle. If the 150 BDN's were just a Fleet Scout instead, you might say "hey, that Fleet Scout didn't attack anything--it should stay out of the fight!" but if it's 150 BDN's it's different. The combat program has no way of knowing based just on ROE's what your intentions are. It figures that if you put a fleet at the battle site, you want it involved in any potential action. It doesn't matter who starts the fight--when the shootin' starts, each side starts firing at every other enemy ship at the battle site--Fleet Scouts, BDN's, freighters, and so on, with no distinction between ships that may or may not have started the fighting before the shooting actually began. That alien ship that showed up with a "Q" setting could easily be one Fleet Carrier (or a hundred Fleet Carriers) capable of obliterating everything you have in one combat round: just because your Explorer didn't start the action doesn't mean it's immune from battle (or your 150 BDN's -- they aren't granted immunity just because they didn't start the battle). Most legendary characters aren't worth much in a naval battle. If you want a combat bonus, have a racial bonus or a naval commander present. I'd like to include more #'s in the battle report to detail the bonuses you do receive from racial space combat bonus and leaders. Point defenses (and anything else that shoots at Fighters and Drones) can destroy Fighters and Drones entirely each combat round, and they also have the usual defensive-system advantage of degrading the offensive firepower of Fighters and Drones. Destroyed Fighters/Drones are gone. Like any other weapon, degraded Fighters/Drones just means that less of their firepower impacts the enemy. This is all recalculated each combat round, so destroyed Fighters/Drones are gone and don't fight in the next combat round. At the conclusion of a battle, if you have damaged ships and cannot carry all of your Fighters/Drones, the excess won't have Bay/Rack space to land and will ditch. This occurs at the end of each battle, not each combat round. Fighters and Drones are worth more per ton in offensive firepower than other weapons of the same technological generation. Some Fighters/Drones even add defensive firepower (usually point defense type, to shoot at enemy Fighters/Drones). A dual-purpose Fighter/Drone splits its effectiveness between offensive and defensive firepower. Fighters and Drones fire as if they were at Deploy Location 1 regardless of where their Carrier mother ships are located. This makes them extremely efficient offensive platforms. The major downside of Fighters/Drones is that they can be destroyed in addition to being degraded (all offensive weapons can be degraded by the appropriate defensive systems, but weapons like Light Beam Lasers only get reduced in actual quantity when their ship is damaged). Fighters and Drones can be reduced in quantity directly by defensive systems. The fact that Fighters and Drones can dish out a lot of damage if the enemy has no point defenses has nothing to do with the Yankees losing in game 6 of the World Series last night, though it might have affected the chances of Boston and Chicago not facing each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 Pete, Fighters & Drones Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you have explained previously, and the Primer concurs, that Fighters and Drones are now essentially similar in every respect. I wonder if, before we get too far down the line, there might be room for a quick review? Missiles, Fighters and Drones all seem, quite rightly, to be part of the same 'combat group' - certainly the defences against them imply that. Missiles, however, are simply other shipboard weapon systems and never run out. It's reasonable to assume that they are less effective than the other two. Fighters put a man in the loop (fighters carry missiles) and can therefore be more effective. The downside is that they can be destroyed and therefore need resupply. Drones are currently exactly the same and I wonder if, more logically, they might be different. If Drones were made, like Drones elsewhere have always been, completely expendable, then they would always need resupply. They could, however, be made even more effective. I do spot that Fighters are, mainly, dual use and that this does, probably, mean there is a difference between Fighters and Drones, but I wonder if, logically, there is a justification to make them completely expendable. This would give us a different third option. However, if I have surmised correctly, that the Dual vs Single use effect is already there, then you just consider the resupply element restrictive enough already? Regards Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 If a given fighter has a dual purpose for attack and point defense, will the division of the fighters' firepower between the two be affected by the orders you give your fighters? For example, if I put them on "deep strike" so that they go for enemy targets in rear ranks, will they put less firepower into point defense? With fire control, I gather that having more of it means you attack more targets. This could in some circumstances be a detriment. Suppose your enemy has just 2 super large assault ships. Without fire control, you'd concentrate fire on just 1, destroying it. With fire control, you might allot half your firepower to each, destroying neither. Does your fleet fire control do anything to gauge tonnage or characteristics of opposing ships to avoid a situation where better fire control could be a detriment? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 If a given fighter has a dual purpose for attack and point defense, will the division of the fighters' firepower between the two be affected by the orders you give your fighters? For example, if I put them on "deep strike" so that they go for enemy targets in rear ranks, will they put less firepower into point defense? With fire control, I gather that having more of it means you attack more targets. This could in some circumstances be a detriment. Suppose your enemy has just 2 super large assault ships. Without fire control, you'd concentrate fire on just 1, destroying it. With fire control, you might allot half your firepower to each, destroying neither. Does your fleet fire control do anything to gauge tonnage or characteristics of opposing ships to avoid a situation where better fire control could be a detriment? Correct - in some unusual circumstances you might not want to split your fire. Suppose, however, that the two super large assault ships you mentioned had a third ship - a Pathfinder, for instance. If you had no Fire Control at all, your ships could easily target and annihilate the Pathfinder during a combat round, wasting a significant amount of firepower. It didn't take much effort for the enemy to include this otherwise insignificant ship in his force, but it sure had an effect on that combat round. In this case you would have been much better off splitting your firepower, because in the same combat round you would have destroyed the Patfhinder anyway and dished out some damage to the big enemy ships. That damage is inflicted immediately and would reduce their effectiveness for the following combat rounds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 26, 2003 Report Share Posted October 26, 2003 That is correct - Fighters and Drones are very similar. Fighters tend to have more dual-purpose uses, splitting up their firepower a bit more. There are also technology advances that are unique to each. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Alright, having just experienced a real battle (1 of my Dahak class ships versus 2 NSI Pup E Light Crusers and 1 Fleet Scout), I have some questions about the end results of the battle. The battle states at the end that my ship was 70% damaged. Due to this damage, the carrying capacity of everything on the ship appears reduced. Fuel was lost so now I have 12,000 Fuel out of 40,000 tanks (or 30% left). Surviving drones and interceptors in the battle could not all be picked up (only 30% of the drone rack or fighter bays could be used). SO ... 1) Does this 70% damage apply to everything? Lets say I had 20,000 Titanium Armor on the ship. Is there now only 6,000 left? 2) Following on (1), lets say I have 10 MK II Computer Systems on board. How many would now be operational (my guess is 3 .. or 2 if the damage is slightly above 70% so the results round down)? 3) Following (1) and (2), lets keep it simple. The battle report said 70% damage. So, is only 30% of everything left operational (Weapons, Engines, Fuel Shuttles, armor, ... everything). In other words, do ships have a general damage rating that is applied to everything equally, so individual parts are not tracked as damaged .. just the overall ship? 4) The turn is completed. Is my ship still badly damaged at the 70% level? I ask because other than the battle results I can find nothing on the fleet or cargo or other report sections that says ship "X" has suffered Y damage. 5) What would happen if I scrap this ship? Would I get back only 30% of all the items due to damage? 6) Finally .. how do I repair a ship? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 If a given fighter has a dual purpose for attack and point defense, will the division of the fighters' firepower between the two be affected by the orders you give your fighters? For example, if I put them on "deep strike" so that they go for enemy targets in rear ranks, will they put less firepower into point defense? With fire control, I gather that having more of it means you attack more targets. This could in some circumstances be a detriment. Suppose your enemy has just 2 super large assault ships. Without fire control, you'd concentrate fire on just 1, destroying it. With fire control, you might allot half your firepower to each, destroying neither. Does your fleet fire control do anything to gauge tonnage or characteristics of opposing ships to avoid a situation where better fire control could be a detriment? Correct - in some unusual circumstances you might not want to split your fire. Suppose, however, that the two super large assault ships you mentioned had a third ship - a Pathfinder, for instance. If you had no Fire Control at all, your ships could easily target and annihilate the Pathfinder during a combat round, wasting a significant amount of firepower. It didn't take much effort for the enemy to include this otherwise insignificant ship in his force, but it sure had an effect on that combat round. In this case you would have been much better off splitting your firepower, because in the same combat round you would have destroyed the Patfhinder anyway and dished out some damage to the big enemy ships. That damage is inflicted immediately and would reduce their effectiveness for the following combat rounds. Right. I understand the situations where fire control systems are beneficial. My question is will fire control hurt you in the situation like the example I gave, 2 large assault ships and no pathfinder? Is fire control sophisticated enough to know that in some cases firepower should *not* be split? I guess I am curious whether having good fire control is just as likely to hurt me as help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Right. I understand the situations where fire control systems are beneficial. My question is will fire control hurt you in the situation like the example I gave, 2 large assault ships and no pathfinder? Is fire control sophisticated enough to know that in some cases firepower should *not* be split? I guess I am curious whether having good fire control is just as likely to hurt me as help. Sure, it could hurt you. I would say that it is not as likely to hurt as to help, though--the odds of facing a small number of large enemy ships with no screen would seem to be small as compared to the far wiser course of having any sort of screen at all (even junk explorers or scouts that just happen to be there). Also, if the two enemy ships were identical - do they have shields? If not, it's questionable that overkilling one is better than damaging both equally. If no damage is absorbed by shields, overkilling one wastes damage with certainty while spreading the damage between the two would inflict effective damage against their onboard systems without any waste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Alright, having just experienced a real battle (1 of my Dahak class ships versus 2 NSI Pup E Light Crusers and 1 Fleet Scout), I have some questions about the end results of the battle. The battle states at the end that my ship was 70% damaged. Due to this damage, the carrying capacity of everything on the ship appears reduced. Fuel was lost so now I have 12,000 Fuel out of 40,000 tanks (or 30% left). Surviving drones and interceptors in the battle could not all be picked up (only 30% of the drone rack or fighter bays could be used). SO ... 1) Does this 70% damage apply to everything? Lets say I had 20,000 Titanium Armor on the ship. Is there now only 6,000 left? 2) Following on (1), lets say I have 10 MK II Computer Systems on board. How many would now be operational (my guess is 3 .. or 2 if the damage is slightly above 70% so the results round down)? 3) Following (1) and (2), lets keep it simple. The battle report said 70% damage. So, is only 30% of everything left operational (Weapons, Engines, Fuel Shuttles, armor, ... everything). In other words, do ships have a general damage rating that is applied to everything equally, so individual parts are not tracked as damaged .. just the overall ship? 4) The turn is completed. Is my ship still badly damaged at the 70% level? I ask because other than the battle results I can find nothing on the fleet or cargo or other report sections that says ship "X" has suffered Y damage. 5) What would happen if I scrap this ship? Would I get back only 30% of all the items due to damage? 6) Finally .. how do I repair a ship? The damage applies across the board, so your computer systems, sensors and so on would be affected. Each ship tracks the number of damage points it has suffered so far. This is divided by the total structural integrity of the ship to leave a positive effectiveness (if the damage points suffered equals the structural integrity, the ship would have been destroyed in the engagement). Damage is not stored per ship system <shudders at the thought>. Armor and the various structural integrity ratings for each ship system is taken into account, making a high structural-integrity ship suffer less % damage over all. The ship is still damaged. Right now there is no way to repair the ship directly. Scrapping and rebuilding is the only way at this time. When scrapped, all of the ship components are recovered. When reconstructed, the ship will be at full strength (you'd lose the time and shipyard effort it takes to reconstruct the ship, though). Fighters and Drones destroyed are lost forever as they are simply cargo and cannot be repaired via a scrap-and-rebuild. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 Right. I understand the situations where fire control systems are beneficial. My question is will fire control hurt you in the situation like the example I gave, 2 large assault ships and no pathfinder? Is fire control sophisticated enough to know that in some cases firepower should *not* be split? I guess I am curious whether having good fire control is just as likely to hurt me as help. Sure, it could hurt you. I would say that it is not as likely to hurt as to help, though--the odds of facing a small number of large enemy ships with no screen would seem to be small as compared to the far wiser course of having any sort of screen at all (even junk explorers or scouts that just happen to be there). Also, if the two enemy ships were identical - do they have shields? If not, it's questionable that overkilling one is better than damaging both equally. If no damage is absorbed by shields, overkilling one wastes damage with certainty while spreading the damage between the two would inflict effective damage against their onboard systems without any waste. Thanks for the clarification. What does it mean that there are gradations in fire control, e.g. from "poor" to "phenomenal." The way you describe it, it sounds like an on/off switch. Either your ships combine all firepower against 1 target, or else they equally divide firepowers against all enemy ships, regardless of tonnage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 The words are just category names for the ship design in question. When the battle actually runs, the total of all Fire Control type systems is used for your entire side (one ship in one fleet on your side could provide Fire Control for all of your fleets involved in the battle, or each ship could add to it, or any combination). Some systems are better than others, much like any other item in the game (Holographic Battle Display systems, for instance, are bridge items that help in Fire Control). That total is compared to the total tonnage and ships on your side to determine how many enemy ships your bridge and flagship personnel can target given the equipment at their disposal. It doesn't matter if the equipment is on one of your ships or many--it's all coordinated together to figure the final Fire Control number. Putting all of your eggs into one basket is dangerous if that ship (essentially your flagship) became damaged or destroyed, but then again it might be easier to protect that one ship by putting it into Deploy Location # 12, screening it with other ships, and providing it with armor, shields, defensive systems and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
woolfe99 Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 OK, so the gradations of fire control rating affect how many ships you will target. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 RTG Pete wrote: Right now there is no way to repair the ship directly. Scrapping and rebuilding is the only way at this time. When scrapped, all of the ship components are recovered. When reconstructed, the ship will be at full strength (you'd lose the time and shipyard effort it takes to reconstruct the ship, though). Are you saying that we don't have the tech for it or that the ability to repair ships at shipyards hasn't been coded in? If the latter I sincerely hope that will come as people start running into one another and having battles we should be able to repair ships that we can build n'est pas? Is this the same issue with repairing installations found on neutrals? Any word on when that will be fixed? Hopefully we'll see self repairing modules appear for ships in the higher techs but no sign of it yet in either EXPL techs or otherwise... /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted October 27, 2003 Report Share Posted October 27, 2003 It was coded but I don't like the way it works, so currently it's disabled. For now you can repair by scrapping and building at a shipyard. In-space repairs via fleet repair docks will be reactivated soon - battles starting to heat up these days Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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