DWillard Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Pete, Can you look at this situation and if it actually does work as described by Shadow in another thread, can you come up with a fix for it. (DECF with a character and then NEWF that same fleet number in ANY other system and the charater comes along with the empty fleet). I don't think a character's personal shuttle was intended to have transwarp drives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted January 3, 2004 Report Share Posted January 3, 2004 Yep - I know about that one. Should be corrected before the next turn runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krelnett_of_Kraan Posted January 4, 2004 Report Share Posted January 4, 2004 What's the correction, just so we know what is and isn't possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitsune Posted January 5, 2004 Report Share Posted January 5, 2004 Yep - I know about that one. Should be corrected before the next turn runs. Huzzah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted January 21, 2004 Report Share Posted January 21, 2004 You might have noticed that on the most recent turn Characters can no longer be assigned to empty fleets. An RN order that transfers out every ship in a fleet also now triggers a free transfer of every character on that fleet to the target fleet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hobknob Posted January 22, 2004 Report Share Posted January 22, 2004 So I take it I now must make major fleet re-organizations in multiple orders to prevent the fleet from ever becoming empty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azuth Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 If you have a fleet with a character in it that you don't want to transfer to another fleet via the RN order, then you're going to have to leave a ship behind, else the character transfers along too. Ex: Fleet #100 has 1 Cruiser Warship, 4 Pathfinders and a Naval Officer Character; Fleet #200 has 1 Pathfinder. If you just move the 4 Pathfinders to from Fleet #100 to #200 via the RN order, the Naval Officer stays at Fleet #100. But if you move all your ships in Fleet #100 to #200, then the Naval Officer transfers over too (meaning Characters transfer over on the last ship in the fleet). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Hmmmm, We suppose there's simple logic behind this as if all the ships go to another Fleet, then the character should go too. However, as characters have already been provided with their own shuttles (AC within system works) it doesn't quite hang together. It certainly will make RN transfers a little harder to plan if they were going to have ships going both ways, if the character wasn't supposed to move - 3 orders instead of 2... For us, the current downside will be the requirement for 5 extra orders next turn that our alter ego will have to pay for!!! Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octagon999 Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 I think that its better to have an occasional AC order when transfers do something with your character that you don't want, than to have to use an AC order everytime you do a reorg. I think you will be saving orders in the long run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowKitsune Posted January 23, 2004 Report Share Posted January 23, 2004 Hmmmm, We suppose there's simple logic behind this as if all the ships go to another Fleet, then the character should go too. However, as characters have already been provided with their own shuttles (AC within system works) it doesn't quite hang together. It certainly will make RN transfers a little harder to plan if they were going to have ships going both ways, if the character wasn't supposed to move - 3 orders instead of 2... For us, the current downside will be the requirement for 5 extra orders next turn that our alter ego will have to pay for!!! Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric Why would it take more Orders? If you have Fleet X with 3 Type A Starships and a Naval Officer and Fleet Y with 2 Type B Starships and an Explorer and want to transfer ships between the Fleets, you could do it without moving either of the Characters. One Fleet is always going to have at least one Starship in it. If you were going to transfer all of the Type As to Fleet Y and all of the Type Bs into Fleet X, wouldn't it be simpler just to transfer the Naval Officer and Explorer? The Fleet ID is really just a number for tracking purposes, it doesn't have any intrinsic value. If you have an example of how this change causes you to use more Orders than before, I'd like to see it, because I'm not able to envision a scenario at the moment. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 If you have an example of how this change causes you to use more Orders than before, I'd like to see it, because I'm not able to envision a scenario at the moment. Thanks. Okay - puts thinking hat on.... Firstly we were thinking of the times we have often taken all the ships out of a fleet on an RN order, or even an SCRP order, but wanted to leave the character(s) present for the fleet to do other things the next turn, or later. For example, the reason we'll have to use extra orders next turn that we didn't plan to is that we just SCRP'd several explorer ships and will be rebuilding them next turn. The characters will now have to be re-AC'd as the fleets were emptied. Secondly, we do not use our fleets just as placeholders. We've put some thought into naming and like to keep their entities intact. It means that our map markers are all meaningful as we can remember nearly all our fleet compositions without looking as there is much standardisation. In addition many of our fleets have either standing orders or convoy routes attached to them and thus keeping the same fleet on those orders saves countless myriads of future orders. We sure we can think of a few others, but it sure is a pain this time. If this update had happened a turn, or so, later it wouldn't have affected us much at all. Just now it's irritating. And we all do things differently, we doubt we would agree with all of your empire's decisions....... Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Morgan Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 You might have noticed that on the most recent turnCharacters can no longer be assigned to empty fleets. Do characters still have personal shuttles to move with inside a system? Personally, I would have preferred allowing characters to remain alone in a fleet but use a toggler switch like the FUEL with a default of always transferring characters (for those who are inattentive to the game) but allowing others to override the auto transfer and be able to keep their characters in an empty fleet aboard a personal shuttle. I realise that this would involve more coding, but I liked being able to have characters have personal shuttle craft. -Governor Henry Morgan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted January 25, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 Ur-Lord, Wish you would have spoken up sooner. I didn't see a problem with being able leave characters in empty fleets... so long as you couldn't then DECF and then NEWF the same fleet number 10 systems away and have the character magically appear. No one else spoke up so the matter was dropped. We could have worked with Pete to come up with a solution that satisfied both concerns (like the one Henry Morgan just proposed). If you can AC to an asteroid field, gas giant, or any hostile planet/moon with no pop group, why can't you AC to an empty fleet? Do characters have personal shuttles or not? It just isn't logical and it takes away the flexibility of the AC order which has already been severely diminished by limiting the number of ACs/character/turn. I never liked that "fix" either. If an Explorer on a 10 AP ship can MOVE to and SURV 5 warp points in a sytem in one turn, what's the big deal with being able to AC multiple times to a couple of 2 AP ships? Now that a lot more players have 4+ AP ships, this seems trivial. I'm going to make a prediction here. When Pete gets around to adding the code for the Special Agents, then all the sneaky, stab you in the back type players (this is a good portion of the "peaceful, non-warmongers") will start coming out of the woodwork to loosen up the restrictions on the AC. They will think it is perfectly ok to AC from their Homeworld, across the galaxy, to another players Homeworld, all with a single order and no real means of transportation. They will want to be able to efforlessly infiltrate other player positions with an extremely minimal use of orders and resourses. Of course I don't have any idea how Pete is going to implement the Specail Agent code so all this could be moot. But the point is that we need to limit fixes and restrictions to situations where abuse actually affects game balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RTGPete Posted January 25, 2004 Report Share Posted January 25, 2004 The problem with the Legendary Characters being assigned anywhere you want, any time you want, with no transport needed or even a ship in the target fleet was that it was extremely easy to abuse. Just assign your best Explorer to any fleet you like and presto! you can SURVey that warp point. Next turn send him 1,000 light years away to another fleet with a hard warp point. Instant matter transporters for characters. Fight a space battle at one location and assign your best naval commander out of there to another battle location on the other side of your empire, to fight again. In theory you could still do this by chaining a series of fleets together to get him somewhere, but I would imagine this to be a rare case, not to mention requiring a solid interior fleet organization setup to accomplish. I allowed characters to be assigned anywhere in the same star system to save you orders and ship actions (no need to move his fleet to the target world, assign him, and then move that fleet back to where it started). The fix on the last turn just means you have to actually assign your characters to fleets that they'll actually work with. It certainly will make RN transfers a little harder to plan if they were going to have ships going both ways, if the character wasn't supposed to move - 3 orders instead of 2... The characters only transfer if you completely empty a fleet into another fleet. This saves you an order, or multiple orders in the case of several characters, that would otherwise have been needed to transfer them over. Personally, I assign my Explorers to ships that survey warp points. They help with exploration missions, too, but I have enough difficult warp points to survey right now that I need every Explorer on SURV duty. They stay with those ships forever, and never need to transfer anywhere else. Naval commanders go with war fleets. If I empty that war fleet into another fleet, I want him to go along with the ships, as that's what he is there for. Scientists stay on the homeworld, or sometimes on exploration fleets to help out with SURVeys, but either way they stick with their world or ship. Secondly, we do not use our fleets just as placeholders. We've put some thought into naming and like to keep their entities intact. It means that our map markers are all meaningful as we can remember nearly all our fleet compositions without looking as there is much standardisation. In addition many of our fleets have either standing orders or convoy routes attached to them and thus keeping the same fleet on those orders saves countless myriads of future orders. I'll admit that I don't know what this has to do with the AC loophole. I am not entirely clear as to the advantages of transferring characters to empty fleets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DWillard Posted January 26, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2004 I am not entirely clear as to the advantages of transferring characters to empty fleets. It's about flexibility. This is one example that comes to mind. Lets say I have an explorer on a pathfinder that has MK I Jump Survey Sensors and he is 3 or 4 jumps out from the homeworld. Too far out to readily bring back to the homeworld. I've just built ships with MK III JSS and will be sending them out. I only have a few explorer type characters and none on the home world. I want the explorer to be assigned to the new ship that is going to be headed toward the pathfinder, but it will take it a few turns to get here. In the meantime, I want the pathfinder to head out to a star system that is in another direction and have it start doing some Pmaps and Geos. If the pathfinder is in a system with planets, I can AC to the planet and have the pathfinder go on its way. When the new ship comes through that system, I can AC to the new ship and have that ship go on its way. If the pathfinder was originally in an area of a bunch of nexii, I could have AC to an emply fleet, had the pathfinder go on its way, and then later AC to the new ship when it came through. Now I can't do that. Yes, the pathfinder could just sit there and wait for the new ship to come along, but I don't want to be forced into situations like that. Though sometimes it may cost more orders, I prefer the flexibility. BTW, with the new fix, what happens when you SCRP all of the ships in a fleet that has a character? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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