Orbital Distances of Warp Points

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Ahhh I found it - the SENS (XSENS - same thing) order would generate the "No alien fleets are detected here" message if it found an empty fleet from any empire. It shouldn't do that, as empty fleets aren't supposed to show up ever. I've eliminated that line from the code so that there is no way to distinguish a totally unoccupied (by aliens) location and one that has at least one empty fleet.

 

Thanks for pointing this one out

 

Ummmm, no

 

That's not what I meant!

 

The "No alien fleets are detected here" message has appeared on every successful SENS/XSENS order I've ever done - and there have very rarely been any empty fleets there - and they would have been mine anyway.

 

This time there was an alien fleet there and it didn't produce the message - which was damned unusual What it didn't do is report the alien fleet, which I was expecting.

 

So - is the SENS order not working properly?

 

Mx

[RTGPete]

You will never see that message again - it was entirely erroneous. That line only appeared in one spot in the code, and was part of an 'else' that had to do with counting up the number of fleets with ships in them. The other movement commands (NM, MOVE, WARP for instance) use identical calls to the intruder_sightings except that they didn't have the erroneous 'else. There is no need to worry about the fleet count, because intruder_sightings takes care of that anyway. Gone forever from the code now.

 

It's possible that intruder_sightings saw an alien fleet there (in the Fleets table) but you failed the check to actually see them. This could have triggered the same result.

[DWillard]

I think what Ur-Lord Tedric is trying to say is this:

 

If the SENS order failed it's check, shouldn't the turn result have stated "...No alien Fleets are detected here."

 

Since this statement did not appear (and he knew that an alien fleet was actually there due to the alien sighting report that was generated earlier in the turn when the fleet moved in) is it possible that the SENS sweep was successful but there is a problem with the program generating the report that would show the alien sighting from a successful SENS.

[RTGPete]

I think what Ur-Lord Tedric is trying to say is this:

 

If the SENS order failed it's check, shouldn't the turn result have stated "...No alien Fleets are detected here."

 

Since this statement did not appear (and he knew that an alien fleet was actually there due to the alien sighting report that was generated earlier in the turn when the fleet moved in) is it possible that the SENS sweep was successful but there is a problem with the program generating the report that would show the alien sighting from a successful SENS.

As it happens, nothing at all is supposed to be generated on a nothing-sighted result. There was an "else" statement that picked up too many non-spotted possibilities, some of which included empty fleets, while other times it wouldn't state anything. I simply yanked the statement and sent it into a black hole. As before, if you fleet actually spots something, it will print that. If not, or your fleet fails the spotting check on something that is there, nothing will appear.

[DWillard]

Thanks Pete. It just took a couple of explanations for it to sink in. I get it now.

 

 

However, this brings up other questions/concerns about what the SENS order is actually capable of doing or is intended to do.

 

An Alien Sighting report is generated when a fleet of one empire moves into the same location of another empire. Not counting any type of future/advanced cloaking tech, the chance of this seems near 100%. At least I've not heard of any failures. If this chance is near 100% and doesn't seem to matter if you have any sensors or not, it seems reasonable that executing a specific order with a ship with sensors should have a higher % chance of success than just moving into a location already occupied by an alien.

 

What I'm getting at is this. Why did Ur-Lord's SENS order fail? If he got the "automatic" sighting ealier in the turn, and assuming that his ship had any kind of sensors at all, the SENS order should have been successful with a co-located alien fleet. If the % chance of success with the SENS order is so low, even with a co-loacted fleet, why are we wasting our time and money using this order?

 

I would expect that with advancing sensor technology the % chance for success will go up (or back down with advancing anti-detection devices) and I would also hope that advanced technology will allow for the detection of alien fleets that are not co-located (this is my tie-in to the thread topic about AU's). However, I think we deserve a lot more information on the mechanics of the game and how the orders we are paying to use actually work. I have more things to do with my empires than I will ever be able to afford all the orders for. So it comes down to being able to prioritize my needs. It is very frustrating and difficult to prioritize when we don't even know how all of the orders work or what they are actually capable of doing. Rather than spending orders setting up a bunch of fleets with XSENS, I could have used those orders to set up some useful convoy routes or whatever.

 

I didn't mean for this to turn into a rant, but I just wish that the mechanics of the game (be it what the SENS order can or can't do or if and how weapon range/speed/accuracy come into play) were not kept such a mystery. Mystery and secrecy are fine for the tech tree, certain actual formulas, and other aspects of the game but I don't think they are well suited for game mechanics.

[MadMartinB]

Dwillard -

 

I have gotten a failed detection when I moved into a system. It is possible that we just crossed paths but I had an 8 AP ship trying to locate the fleet and went Move, Move, Move, Move (only 2 warp points in system) Warp. I missed him on the first move and got him on the third move...

 

There is a chance that he did a MOVE, MOVE on exactly my sequence but I did vary it pretty dramatically order 31, 45, 53 and 65.

 

[Paradigm]

I've not gone back and tested it lately or thoroughly, but I am reasonably certain that SENS orders for me have failed to detect alien fleets that NM/WARP indicated were there before/after. This makes me believe that MOVE/NM is 100% or near 100% while SENS is less (or broken?), which as you point out, is illogical.

 

Has anyone tried a NM or MOVE to the same location that the fleet in question and an alien fleet are already at, to see if it triggers another sighting? Or is it only the actual act of arriving that triggers the report.

 

This is important: I feel strongly that if we receive a contact report due to arrival (of either fleet), then we must receive a report when/if the alien fleet DEPARTS. It is only logical and fair that we receive a departure report. In addition, I think it would add another useful element to the game system.

 

I do not understand why our empires do not know the range / ability of our fleets / sensors to detect other fleets. Cloaking technologies are a different matter, I just mean being able to detect other ships/fleets similar to our own. Personally, I have no idea if the Mk I Short Range Sensor and it's successors have any value whatsoever in detecting non-cloaked enemy fleets. Nor do I have any way to know how many sensors I should be mounting on my ships for this purpose. Is a handful sufficient, or does it need to be a percentage of ship mass (which wouldn't be very logical either, but who knows?) in which case large ships would need thousands of sensors to detect non-cloaked alien ships. Will researching longer range sensors allow me to detect alien fleets the next moon over, or is detection only possible when co-located regardless of sensors / sensor tech and distance? Combat is another matter, but again I have no clue. Do I need any sensors at all for targeting purposes, or are they purely an anti-mine defense system in combat? Should they be mounted by number or by a percentage of the ship's total mass? Do the sensor descriptions contain important clues, or is it just colorful writing to make them more entertaining to read?

 

I agree DWillard that some aspects of combat etc. should be a mystery to solve in-game, or simply a secret known only to the GM. But other aspects such as the ones discussed above should not be a mystery to our empires. It's illogical and frustrating, and for some items discussed above, there is no good way to test in-game. In the sensor area, we are left making a random guess on how to design our fleets and allocate our research, that will have serious implications down the road and not be easily corrected once tens of millions of tons of fleet have been built.

[Sha'thar of the Gosht Kohr]

Sha'thar grins, imagining the scenero. A picket ship sits at a warp point, doing routine scans. Suddenly, alarms whine and screens flare! The scanner tech leaps to the controls and confirms that scanners indicate that there IS nothing there! Arm all weapons! LFE! LFE!

[MadMartinB]

I thought sensors were for combat. Take the MK I SR Sensor:

 

Sensor rating Poor and counters Mines

 

The Mk I Short Range Sensor is a first generation naval sensor system. It is a self-contained, multi-purpose unit capable of handling all routine navigational duties as well as serving as the primary target acquisition and fire control sensor system during combat. Accordingly, the system has a 360 ° field of vision and is equipped with the latest in sensor technology.

 

It does not say it is designed to handle discovery of fleets inbound. One would assume that but it doesn't.

 

Now take the Fleet Patrol Sensor which has a Sensor Rating of Good v. Mines. This one does look like it focuses on other ships:

Fleet patrol Sensors are used strategically to spot alien vessels that are trying not to be detected. They also have some uses in space combat, but are not as efficient as their similar counterpart, Long Range Sensors.

 

Some clarification would be nice.

 

Another question would be if better sensors expand the range of the detection...

[DWillard]

MMB,

 

You're right. The descriptions of the short, medium, and long range sensors do not specifically state that they can detect incoming ships.

 

But as you said, some clarification is needed.

 

We did not have the FPS description to compare to at the beginning of the game and the descriptions of the early sensors say they are multi-functional.

 

Here's another reason for the possible misconception concerning the abilities of the early sensors. They are classified as sensors (just as the FPS) but if they do not have the ability to detect incoming fleets then their primary functions are to counter mines (which the description states) and to "...act as the primary target aquisition and fire control..." If this is the case, then it seems that they would be classified as a bridge system, like computers, battle imaging systems, etc. that are used primarily for fire control, not as a sensor wich counters minefields and detects incoming ships.

[MadMartinB]

Dwillard -

 

The FPS might be used to detect cloaked ships when in battle...not to find them as a SENS order.

 

Martin

[DWillard]

Maybe, but the description says they are used strategically to spot alien vessles whcih implies to me that they should be useful out of combat.

 

And if what you say is true, then I'm back to my first concern. What good is the SENS order??? You can't issue a SENS order during combat. It's only used out of combat. And the order says it's used to detect alien fleets. If there isn't any technology that increases the effectiveness of the SENS order, and the SENS order isn't any better at detecting fleets than the seemingly near automatic alien sightings that occur during movement, then what's the point of having the order.

 

I think it's only fair that we should get better descriptions of the technolgoy, installations, orders, and game mechanics.

 

Im not the only one shelling out a small fortune to play this game and I think we ought to be getting a better return on our investment of time and how we spend our orders.

 

I know I'm moving away from the thread topic, but take Imperial Medical Centers for example. Why can't the description from the INST order be more specific as to how they work. To find out, I have to conduct turns and turns of experimentation to find out where they fit into my priorites for my empire. I should be able to make that judgement call after doing the INST, not lots of turns and orders down the road. My data isn't complete yet but it looks like they will likely employ more people that you will get in increased growth.

 

If you can't tell yet, my frustration level is on the rise. Now lets see, where did I put my chill pills? I know they are around here somewhere.

[looker]

Not to beat a dead horse (or ratman for that matter), but didn't I read somewhere that those dim red giants may have a solar diameter of several AU? Wouldn't that really make a 1 AU diameter Dyson crowded.

[WKE235]

Dammit Jim, I'm not a Civil Engineer (or Rocket Scientist, or Physicist, or Chemical Engineer, or....).

 

Red Giants would be many AU in size. So yes that could make a Dyson Sphere crowded. Red Dwarfs on the other hand would fit nicely.

 

I wonder, if someone eventually does develop Dyson Spheres in this game, will the materials required be based on the solar size? Placing a Sphere around a dim Red Dwarf is one thing. Placing one around a Blue-White Supergiant would take a LOT of material.

[hobknob]

Any Dyson Sphere would require many planets worth of total resources. Fianlly a use for those useless moons.