Justinian Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Press Release in the Coliseum Chronicle: The Roman High Command today confirmed a major battle took place in Shai System. Grand Admiral Augustus announced that elements of his command surprised enemy forces in the Shai Combined Operations Area (COA). Adm Augustion stated, "It appears the enemy did not anticipate a movement in force against their lodgement in Roman space. We showed them the folly of their actions." Roman forces once again control this critical warp point. The Roman High Command indicated their Intelligence Directorate is currently sifting through enemy wreckage. Early reports indicate that the wreckage confirms the presence of two enemy warships. The largest vessel, a Monitor-class vessel weighing nearly 3M tons, belonged to the Tentacled Horrors from Beyond. This is the same empire that sought to use mass destruction devices against the Roman homeworld. The second vessel, a cruiser-type vessel, was a fleet unit of the Go'ald. The Roman Empire is currently in a state of war with both the "Tentacles" and the Go'ald empires as well as their associate empires of which the Eyre and Pride have so far been identified in past wreckage. When asked about friendly losses, Adm Augustus confirmed that 9 brave Corvette crews lost their lives as they led the assault to help safeguard the Roman homeworld. Adm Augustus is forwarding award citations to the Chief of Staff, Fleet Admiral Scipio Africanus, to document the bravery and gallantry of these patriots. When asked to comment on the one-sidedness of the battle, Adm Scipio replied, "I know...the news from the front is so spectacular, we doubted the early reports. But follow on reports substantiate those initial reports. We only lost 9000 tons to the enemy's 3,000,000+ tons. We're quite proud of the job our forces have done since enemy forces first launched their surprise attacks against our nation. They've proven to be quite relisient." When asked about future operations, the Roman High Command refused to comment on any details. A high-placed military source, however, stated that Roman forces were in constant consultation with the Star Kingdom of Valkor through Marshal Pompei and the Combined Chiefs of Staff. Unconfirmed reports stated Marshal Grant from Valkor High Command and Fleet Admiral Farragut, Commander of Valkor Home Fleet, were sighted at Roman HQ last week. The subject of their visit has not been divulged by government officials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Salutations and jubilations from the GGT Empire! When reports of this stupendous battle came from our observers on the Roman Command Cruiser we barely believed the minimal losses in tonnage. But once detailed figures and images arrived in the Octagon jubilation was heard throughout it's halls. We salute the Roman people and the Roman High Command and are proud to call the Romans allies! We learn with every battle more to defend our own space and with the Battle of Shai we have foremost learned that this call will soon be spread over the universe Roma Victorious!!! Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galreth Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 Press release from the Defense Ministry: The Kingdom of Valkor expresses its extreme pleasure with the news from the Shai Combined Operations Area under the command of Grand Admiral Augustus. In a show of complete confidence, the Valkor Defense Ministry has agreed that Adm Augustus will have ultimate authority to draw on all assets of both empires in the fight against our combined enemies. Valkor believes that after the destruction of an Eyre fleet several turns ago in the Borebor Cluster and now the resounding victory in the Shai COA, the enemy's back is close to being broken. The Combined Chiefs of Staff remain in close consultation as to future operations. Duke Esper of Wycliffe Defense Minister Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slish Posted May 7, 2005 Report Share Posted May 7, 2005 *Transmission fades in* Here is a copy of the battle in question. First of all, I am not bitching over losing the battle. Secondly, I am not whining about the results. Thirdly, I freely admit that I would have lost this battle. I was really curious about the disparity between the tonnage destroyed. My Tiger Shark has a FC of 15 and was dragged down to 13 by the Go'ald ship. The Roman forces assaulted through a warp point. If I'm not mistaken, it's a B point from his end. From what I understand, we have no control over what ships warp through first. His entire fleet couldn't have made it through on one pulse. Chances are, based on his fleet numbers, the first few pulses would have been nothing but his screen ships. His 2,800 fighters came through on the first pulse if I'm correct. However, our understanding of the black box combat system is a little less than full. I think my Tiger Shark would have survived the initial onslaught of the fighters and killed a lot more screen ships that the wimpy nine shown on the battle report. One thing that caught my attention as I was studying the battle was that his CO Pilums had a "Point Defense: 5,982.023" and Auxl Pilums had a "Point Defense: 6,213.595" without anything on his ship resembling CIDS at all. I've discovered that the Point Defense number has a lot to do with the CIDS total modifier ratio'd to the total tonnage of the ship much like FC. However, when the ship doesn't have anything on it that would provided point defense it seems a little fishy. Personally, I think the PD on the Pilums might be a bug in the combat system. Hmmm, thinking about it, I remember something here on the boards mentioning that CIDS are used at the fleet level instead of on a ship level. If true, that means that the low tonnage on his screens ratio'd to the CIDS total modifier would produce the insane PD numbers they sported. If true, that makes the throw away screen ship strategy all the more useful against seeking weapons. At the very least, the defenders should have blown up a lot more ships than the nine. Maybe RTG could use this battle to see if the combat system is really working like it should. If the combat system is working like it's supposed to, then we need that Naval Combat Primer ASAP. Congrats to the Romans on their victory. Even if the results were a little on the odd side. Warlord Slish *transmission fades out* Alien Fleet Sighting : Shai Warp Point # 26420 [warp move by empire # 760] [Warp Point # 26420 is known to lead to the Ovitrigailo system] ROM Roman Empire # 760 'Golden Eagle Enshrouded By A Wreath Of Olive Branches' Fleet 507 [Romeo] 1 AUXH CENTURION B (Heavy Auxiliary - 433,400 tons) 4 CVB Illyrian Legion 3 (Bantam Carrier - 178,700 tons) 72 CO PILUM 3W (Corvette - 1,000 tons) 152 AUXL PILUM 4W (Light Auxiliary - 1,000 tons) 1 AUXH PLEBIAN B (Heavy Auxiliary - 721,900 tons) 1 CCA Patrician (Command Cruiser - 814,100 tons) GLD The Go'ald # 3841 'Jaws Devouring A Sun With Vines Wrapping The Sun' Fleet 2000 [Romeo] 1 AUXH Mala Kar (Heavy Auxiliary - 362,000 tons) ================================================================================ ========================================= ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ** NAVAL BATTLE REPORT ** ----- SHAI [ F (Yellow-White) 8 V ] [single Star] - Warp Point 26420 ----- Roman Empire #760 Total tonnage: 2,908,200 Base Fire Control: 1 [158,000 bridge] Tentacled Horrors From Beyond #3164 The Go'ald #3841 Total tonnage: 3,076,100 Base Fire Control: 13 [40,800,000 bridge] ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** Roman Empire # 760 [Golden Eagle Enshrouded By A Wreath Of Olive Branches] Fleet 507 [ROE: R] *Column Attack* (Fleet Tonnage: 2,908,200) Cargo Bays: ... 3,000 Fighter Bays: ... 28 ... 2,800 Attack Fighter Tentacled Horrors From Beyond Page 2 of 77 Friday, May 06, 2005 3164 --------------------[Deploy Location 1] 72 CO PILUM 3W (Corvette - 1,000 tons [each])----------------------------------- Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Clumsy .. Sensors: Average .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Durable 72 Mk IV Short Range Torpedo (Missile) .... 7,200 Selenite Battle Weave --------------------[Deploy Location 2] 1 CCA Patrician (Command Cruiser - 814,100 tons [each])------------------------- Fire Control: Minimal .. Maneuverability: Lumbering .. Sensors: Oblivious .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Fortified 6,000 6cm Gatling CIDS .... 400,000 Cordellium Composite .... 500 Mk V Short Range Torpedo (Missile) --------------------[Deploy Location 2] 1 AUXH PLEBIAN B (Heavy Auxiliary - 721,900 tons [each])------------------------ Fire Control: Minimal .. Maneuverability: Lumbering .. Sensors: Blind .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Fortified 2,000 6cm Gatling CIDS .... 400,000 Cordellium Composite .... 175 Mk IV Short Range Torpedo (Missile) --------------------[Deploy Location 2] 152 AUXL PILUM 4W (Light Auxiliary - 1,000 tons [each])------------------------- Fire Control: Minimal .. Maneuverability: Clumsy .. Sensors: Blind .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Sturdy 106,400 Standard Hull Plate --------------------[Deploy Location 2] 1 AUXH CENTURION B (Heavy Auxiliary - 433,400 tons [each])---------------------- Fire Control: Minimal .. Maneuverability: Lumbering .. Sensors: Oblivious .. Shields: Feeble .. Structural Integrity: Mighty 1,200 6cm Gatling CIDS .... 100,000 Cordellium Composite .... 400 Mk I Force Shield .... 125 Mk IV Short Range Torpedo (Missile) --------------------[Deploy Location 11] 4 CVB Illyrian Legion 3 (Bantam Carrier - 178,700 tons [each])----------------- Fire Control: Fair .. Maneuverability: Lumbering .. Sensors: Groping .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Mighty 4,000 6cm Gatling CIDS .... 320,000 Cordellium Composite .... 28 Fighter Bay ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** Tentacled Horrors From Beyond # 3164 [Tentacled Horror Devouring Planet] Fleet 721 [ROE: Y] *Column Attack* (Fleet Tonnage: 2,714,100) --------------------[Deploy Location 9] 1 BM Tiger Shark (Monitor - 2,714,100 tons [each])------------------------------ Fire Control: Phenomenal .. Maneuverability: Lumbering .. Sensors: Blind .. Shields: Energized .. Structural Integrity: Durable 3,000 10cm Gauss Gun (Projectile) .... 10,000 4cm Gatling Gauss Gun CIDS .... 5,000 Mk I Force Shield .... 3,000 Mk I Standard Missile (Missile) .... 300,000 Selenite Battle Weave ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** The Go'ald # 3841 [Jaws Devouring A Sun With Vines Wrapping The Sun] Fleet 2000 [ROE: R] *Column Attack* (Fleet Tonnage: 362,000) --------------------[Deploy Location 9] 1 AUXH Mala Kar (Heavy Auxiliary - 362,000 tons [each])------------------------- Fire Control: Minimal .. Maneuverability: Quick .. Sensors: Groping .. Shields: None .. Structural Integrity: Durable 50,000 Cordellium Composite .... 5 Energy Sapper Torpedo (Energy Absorber) .... 400 Light Shaker Beam (Gravitonic) .... 500 Mk I Repulsor CIDS ** Imperial Navy Report: Fleet Order of Battle ** -------------------------------------------------- DepLoc 1 ------------------------------------------------------------ CO PILUM 3W (Corvette - 1,000 tons) [integrity: 3,000] (Green, Timid) 1 Mk I Computer System, 1 Mk I Nuclear Engine, 1 Mk I Nuclear Jump Drive, 1 Mk I Short Range Sensor 1 Mk IV Short Range Torpedo, 100 Selenite Battle Weave Missile: 4,000 Maneuverability: 0.300, Point Defense: 5,982.023, Sensors: 0.250 AUXH CENTURION B (Heavy Auxiliary - 433,400 tons) [integrity: 5,922,400] [shields: 120,000] (Green, Timid) 1,200 6cm Gatling CIDS, 1 Battle Imaging System, 1,000 Cargo Bay, 100,000 Cordellium Composite 5 Fuel Shuttle, 10,000 Fuel Tankage, 50 Heavy Magnetic Grapple, 1 Mk I Computer System, 400 Mk I Force Shield 25 Mk I Medium Range Sensor, 1 Mk I Nuclear Engine, 1 Mk I Nuclear Jump Drive, 50 Mk I Short Range Sensor 125 Mk IV Short Range Torpedo, 10 Type A ECM Package Gravitonic: 924,000, Missile: 500,000 ECM: 0.115, Point Defense: 13.474, Sensors: 0.057 CVB Illyrian Legion 3 (Bantam Carrier - 178,700 tons) [integrity: 4,578,700] (Green, Timid) 1,000 6cm Gatling CIDS, 1 Battle Imaging System, 80,000 Cordellium Composite, 7 Fighter Bay 5 Mk I Computer System, 25 Mk I Medium Range Sensor, 5 Mk I Nuclear Engine, 1 Mk I Nuclear Jump Drive 50 Mk I Short Range Sensor Maneuverability: 0.008, Point Defense: 32.456, Sensors: 0.139 CVB Illyrian Legion 3 (Bantam Carrier - 178,700 tons) [integrity: 4,578,700] (Green, Timid) CVB Illyrian Legion 3 (Bantam Carrier - 178,700 tons) [integrity: 4,578,700] (Green, Timid) CVB ILLYRIAN LEGION 3 (Bantam Carrier - 178,700 tons) [integrity: 4,578,700] (Green, Timid) CCA Patrician (Command Cruiser - 814,100 tons) [integrity: 22,792,100] (Green, Timid) 6,000 6cm Gatling CIDS, 1 Battle Imaging System, 1,000 Cargo Bay, 400,000 Cordellium Composite 5 Fuel Shuttle, 21,000 Fuel Tankage, 1 Mk I Computer System, 10 Mk I Long Range Sensor, 25 Mk I Medium Range Sensor 1 Mk I Nuclear Engine, 103 Mk I Nuclear Jump Drive, 50 Mk I Short Range Sensor, 500 Mk V Short Range Torpedo Missile: 4,000,000 Tentacled Horrors From Beyond Page Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali-t-akua Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Slish, one thing I note from the description shown is that his fleet all has Selenite and Cordelium whereas you have Mk I Standard Missles and 10 cm Gauss guns which are poor and fair weapons. I was wondering that if you combine that with the high FC that you might not have spread your fire too widely leading to the low rate of destruction? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
octagon999 Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 I think that the dolphins have made a good point. It is possible to dilute your offense too much through FC so that there are too many survivors. I'm not saying that it is the reason in this specific battle, because I haven't run the numbers, but I've already worried about that balance in my own fleet. There may be a such a thing as TOO MUCH fire control. Great, just what we all needed... something else to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WKE235 Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Slish, one thing I note from the description shown is that his fleet all has Selenite and Cordelium whereas you have Mk I Standard Missles and 10 cm Gauss guns which are poor and fair weapons. I was wondering that if you combine that with the high FC that you might not have spread your fire too widely leading to the low rate of destruction? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Lets see 1) The Tiger Shark was in Deploy Location 9. I'm not certain what the ranges are for the 10cm Gauss Gun. If the weapons are short range, that would mean 8x10% past 1 = 80% reduction in firepower. 2) The Attack Fighters used by the Romans provide Good level Point Defense. Fighters are a fleet level CIDS coverage. The Romans choices for fighter deployment is not listed. But still, Good Point Defense versus Poor Missles should greatly reduce the effect of your missles. So, basically your missles may have been next to useless, and the guns fired at greatly reduced firepower. Still ... 3000 10cm Gauss Guns, even at 20% power, should pack a wallop. Divided into 15 pulses of fire is like 200 guns per pulse .. which at 80% effectiveness = just like firing 40 full power guns per pulse. I'm not certain what that firepower is .. but I suspect it exceeds 3000 integrity per ship. So, why did so few Corvettes get toasted? If we could only get answers to the questions (which have been asked before) below, we might know... a) Do ship speeds play into the equation? Could the lumbering Tiger Shark have an added penalty on top of everything that prevented some hits? Would the Clumsy Corvettes get that much of a bonus? b ) Does Firepower = Integrity (IE .. you do X points of integrity damage for X fired)? Or do you need Y fire to damage 1 integrity point. c) What is the firepower of an Attack fighter anyway? And a Drone? d) What does a point defense rating of 13, or 5960, or 0.13 mean? On (d) I think it has been mentioned in previous threads that Point Defense numbers are based on available PD points divided by ship tonnage. Fine. But what does the higher number mean and how is it used? I'm beginning to think that the numbers we see are translating into near invulnerability for small ships to fighters / missles / drones .. and the result is any fighters / drones / missles targeted to those ships get wiped out. In a way, it would make sense. All of these small ships sitting there, with a large fleet of protecting fighters above. As the missles/drones/fighters come in towards a very small target, the protectors dive in and protect. Sort of like air cover in WWII diving in to take out torpedo and dive bombers before they hit ships (and was often a pretty effective defense). In this case, since the target is so small, it's easy to lay a wall of protecting fire in front of the ship, and get great defense results. Very interesting.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Many many questions which hopefully we'll get some answers to once the Naval Combat Primer arrives... As for the battle...it's like with restaurants, it's all about location, location, location What is worrying is that so many Empires are having big battles without the tools to understand the results or actually plan for the next battle and nothing is done about it. The several threads of late where people post their battles here and ask for explanations should be evidence enough to that fact so what is happening with the primer Pete? /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cestvel Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 c) What is the firepower of an Attack fighter anyway? And a Drone? On c) we have the answer in the new style ANZ. You can also estimate the ratio on PD vs. Offensive Power by these ANZ. Cestvel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 On c) we have the answer in the new style ANZ. You can also estimate the ratio onPD vs. Offensive Power by these ANZ. But we don't know the effect of Fighter Orders on these figures, nor racial bonuses /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ur Lord Tedric Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 c) What is the firepower of an Attack fighter anyway? And a Drone? On c) we have the answer in the new style ANZ. You can also estimate the ratio on PD vs. Offensive Power by these ANZ. Cestvel <{POST_SNAPBACK}> And this is one of the Strengths that we've seen in the ANZs that appears to be horribly wrong...... We don't think it would have made any difference in this battle, but it needs to be resolved quickly... Chief Warmaster to Ur-Lord Tedric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 This is a long post, but this is a topic I've been following closely. The results do seem very odd. Surely the 3,000 Tentacled Gauss Guns even from DepLoc 9 with fire control 13 would have destroyed 9 (or more) of the 1,000 ton Roman swarm ships in one round, which implies that the battle only lasted one round. Did the full report show any damaged Roman ships? The Roman swarm ships are unshielded so even a single point of damage should have showed. I guess the WP could be so small that only a few Roman ships came through per round. Tentacled might have been killing Roman swarm ships as fast as they came through the WP, but in the mean time the Roman fighters tore the Tentacled ships up. Can 2,800 Attack Fighters do that much damage that quickly? The Tiger Shark did have CIDS and must have had several million structural integrity. One would expect it to last a few rounds vs 280,000 tons of attacking fighters. It looks to me like the Tentacled fleet was doomed in this battle due to the large number of Roman swarm ships if nothing else. But I can't figure how they lost so badly. This is another instance where either there is something wrong with the combat system, or there is some fundamental aspect of it that apparently none of us understand. If we were just given a round by round summary of how a battle developed, we could probably tell which it was. I'm not too keen on systems where the outcome of battles are much more lopsided than the size/quality of the opponents fleets/armies/etc. It gives too much advantage to the victor and makes it difficult for the looser of a big battle to recover. It can cause an entire war to come down to the luck of who got a 5% advantage in a key battle. Would the Roman player be willing to post the size of the WP? It would also be useful to know how many Roman Attack Fighters were lost, but I can understand if he didn't want to share that data with Slish. Thanks to both of you for posting details about the battle. I'm suspicious when a 3 million ton fleet only manages to kill 9 1,000 ton swarm ships in a battle. If the Tentacled side only had a targeting of one I might be able to buy it, but with 13, it just doesn't look right. I've posted before that I really don't like the swarm ship nonsense. Any system that forces massive overkilling is open to exploit. I can't fault the Romans for using swarm ships. You have to do what is necessary to win. It just shouldn't be such a dominating tactic. And it will cause wars to slow to a crawl since swarm ships cannot mount TWD's. I've heard the arguments that it can be easily countered. I've looked at the available data and I just don't buy those arguments. If one side is throwing away most of his damage for even just a few rounds, and the other side is not, he is going to loose if everything else is equal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locklyn Posted May 8, 2005 Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Also consider this: There were two (2) targets for the Roman Fleet to attack. The Romans had a FC of 1, thus took out one ship at a time with all 2800 fighters attacking from round one. The Mala Kar was the first vessel to be destroyed immediately which actually raises the FC of the Tentacled Horrors. Now most of those weapons are horrendously impaired by being pointblank or short range/Beam weapons deployed at DL 9 which HURTS. This in turn also means you have very little firepower allocated over is 15 or 16 targets. Now what's not to say that several units were targeted several times? Perhaps not destroyed per the first glob of fire but the second? Or that it was only the screens that transisted early? An heavier unit might well have come through and been targeted by globs of fire which it could easily shrug off? The bottom line is while we all can speculate and draw theories from our results to no end we need RULES and we need them NOW so we can build ships to last and actually get some sense from all these numbers in the battle and FOB results instead of this black box combat that seems to be prevalent now. There are already too many other areas in the game that are black boxed and undocumented by the rules /Locklyn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian Posted May 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 The Romans have no problem sharing knowledge...to a point. After all this area is in our core area, so we can not divulge too much info. Suffice to say that the WP size is sufficient to allow many CO's through at one time. Roman scientists have taken apart the battle and also note the concerns many empires have voiced. Realize that while we do not know the exact battle system either, we've been in enough battles to start discerning certain trends which we now use in future battles. It is an advantage our enemies have burdened us with. In a system divised like this, it is all we have to use. Lord Locklyn hit on our scientists #1 reason for the battle. We believe a "heavy" unit, the Centurion, transited early, absorbing ALL damage on shields...and as it was a "heavy" it warped ALONE, leaving no vulnerable CO's to get hit with VERY DEGRADED firepower from the enemy. On pulse 1, the fighters and heavy dispatched the Go'ald ship with concentrated firepower (did I mention how much satisfaction we got with that one? The public is "wild" about that particular part of the battle). On pulse 2, CO's warped in to join the battle in the SAME DepLoc as the Heavy, so the enemy now had something to kill, but when targeting decisions were adjudicated by the enemy's computers, they frequently chose the Heavy unit, which shrugged off the minor damage. But 9 unlucky CO skippers and their crews lost the "lottery" before the mass of fighters fired their missiles and the Centurion put its broadside into the remaining target. Is this a TRUE explanation of the occurrence? We do not know. Does it work? We think it does. Archimedes Syracusa Dept Roman Ministry of Science Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justinian Posted May 8, 2005 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2005 Paradigm Posted Today, 05:45 AM Thanks to both of you for posting details about the battle. I'm suspicious when a 3 million ton fleet only manages to kill 9 1,000 ton swarm ships in a battle. If the Tentacled side only had a targeting of one I might be able to buy it, but with 13, it just doesn't look right. I've posted before that I really don't like the swarm ship nonsense. Any system that forces massive overkilling is open to exploit. Lord Paradigm-- While I understand your point of view on a "swarm" being too powerful, we Romans must take umbridge with the fact that no one really questioning the awesome power of just ONE Go'ald ship when it ravaged a large number of Roman ships and orbitals. There was no outcry about an "imbalance". We stress that to you it may appear unbalanced, but to us, this is COMPLETE balance to what we saw earlier from the power of just one ship. The Roman stance is that it is not nonsense and it doesn't force anything on players except patience rather than rushing into battle. Our explanation above adds credibility to what may have happened and even if it did not, what would have been the outcome of this battle? Perhaps 15 more dead CO's? From our view, this is finally an outcome we can justify, and one we worked hard to achieve with planning and patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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