Tracking collected WP information

[Prospective]

Ok, here's a question of record keeping. How does everyone manage their WP data? What I mean is, for each jump farther out from the HW, you get more and more systems. The first "tier" out isn't too bad, but by the time I get to the 6th or 7th "tier", it's going to be ridiculous the number of systems and warp points to track.

 

I have been keeping the information on an Excel spreadsheet in a pseudo graphical way. I created a box 2 columns wide by 8 columns high. The name goes in the top row, then that system's WP info (number, destination, class and size) go into the next 7 boxes. However, that is getting more difficult to manage, as every "tier" out, I have to add in new rows and then copy and paste the boxes and enter the data.

 

There's gotta be an easier way to maintain WP data and keep it in a semi-visual format to understand how each system is linked. Can anyone provide a suggestion?

 

Thanks.

[EternusIV]

Astrosynth all the way

 

A bit tedious...but if you are a new empire, I highly suggest it.

 

BTW - those systems "4 tiers out" might only be TWO tiers out down the line....

 

Here is a tidbit on Astrosynth from the Oracle (I introdcued him to the dealers at GenCon last year and have been using it since its release)

 

My best of wishes to your cartographers! May we one day know the shape of our universe!

 

==============================================

Astrosynthesis: Mapping the Galaxy

 

We found a very impressive mapping program at GenCon called AstroSynthesis which might be of great use for mapping your star systems. It is a 3-dimensional mapping program with considerable capabilities. I am in discussions with the developer to add importing warp points (called trade routes in their program) – (as of this update, the developers did just that) It already imports star system data and can do a lot more. If you are interested, head to www.nbos.com and check out the program. If enough guys want it, I can probably arrange for a mass purchase discount. It's pretty inexpensive already at $35.00, and sure looks impressive.

 

Regarding star locations, I'd write a little program that you could run on the stars that you've surveyed (it would pull them from your data file, which already knows which systems you've scanned). That program would assign random XYZ locations to your stars and create a file that AstroSynthesis could import. Once imported, you could then drag your stars around to make them look like a real map instead of at random locations. Warp point import is big - once that's in you could drag a star around and the warp points stay connected, like rubber bands stretching. Then it's just a matter of moving your stars around to get rid of the weird crossover warp lines. AstroSynthesis was written with gamers solidly in mind, and has a lot of very cool features....it just needs that warp point import

 

We will not be giving out the real XYZ coordinates of the actual star systems. A significant portion of the fun of mapping is to figure out where your stars are in relation to each other by using the warp connections. This is especially true when you run into another player - you might have laid out some of your contact stars on the "left" side of your map, but run into him on your left and right. At that point you would have to consider the possibility that you've laid your map out in a funny way and need to rearrange some stars to get them on the same side. It's also possible that he got some ships around you and your map is fine. Real XYZ's would eliminate this aspect of the game.

 

If you like, I can forget about random XYZ's and just leave them blank in your data file - you could then assign your own, export the data (I can create a small program that will export it to AstroSynthesis' requirements) and then import into AstroSynthesis. You can change the locations from within AstroSynthesis simply by dragging the stars around.

 

In any event it's easy to add new stars from within AstroSynthesis as you scan new ones - you can add them anywhere and connect warp lines as desired.

 

To emphasize: there are a wide variety of gameplay and balance reasons to run screaming from any plan to give out real XYZ coordinates. It's simplicity itself to actually do, but has many downsides. You're already using your own XYZ's when you lay out your map right now - those would be fine entries for instant export into AstroSynthesis. Mapping out your star layout is one part of the exploration end of SN:ROTE, and I'd rather not eliminate that aspect of the game.

 

In a more aggressive wargame, I'd be inclined to use a 0,0,0 system (for each homeworld) or simply give out the entire map up front.

 

If in SN:ROTE you knew the exact XYZ coordinates, you might run into a neighbor on your "right". Another player who you have not yet contacted in the game runs into the same empire, but he sees him to his "left". On this message board or through an alliance, you might know that other empire's name. A quick email later and you instantly know where that other player is, without ever having contacted him in-game. This would spread to rapidly lay out the entire galaxy. Within the current structure of SN:ROTE, that would be a bad thing, especially for smaller alliances or solo players. In a new over-the-top aggressive wargame, it might be a good thing.

 

Turning off Hardware Acceleration works great for Nvidia cards (especially the Ti4600 series) and AstroSynthesis - an issue they are looking into.

 

Good news!

 

Astrosynthesis has been updated to allow for warp point import, and I've written some code on this end to export empire star and warp point information. It needs some more work - labeling/coloring one-way warp points (which might not be one-way later, when you survey the return trip) comes to mind.

 

It doesn't export true XYZ coordinates - instead, all stars are assigned to 0.0.0. You would then edit those values to match your map, or simply import and start dragging stars around. Warp lines require no editing and move automatically as you drag stars, stretching like rubber bands no matter where you drag your stars.

 

A sample (tiny) file would look like this:

 

Star,1,Able,0,0,0,1,1,1,,#FF4500,R (Orange-Red)

Star,2,Baker,0,0,0,1,1.1,1,,#FFD700,G (Yellow)

Star,3,Charlie,0,0,0,1,1,0.8,,#FFA500,K (Orange)

Route,Able,Baker,Warp Point,,#FFFFFF,2,1,,,,

Route,Baker,Charlie,Warp Point,,#FFFFFF,2,1,,,,

Route,Able,Charlie,Warp Point,,#FFFFFF,2,1,,,,

 

This text file, in csv format, can be loaded into Excel and everything lines up nice and neat - you'd then edit the 0,0,0 parts to be the coordinates you want for your stars. Save it as a csv or text file, load Astrosynthesis, File - Import Data and that's it. Since you've probably laid out your maps as if they were on graph paper, with effective XYZ's just by the locations of your stars, you'd translate your existing star coordinates, save, and import. Warp points need no adjustment, representing the largest part of the export.

 

For those of you who already have Astrosynthesis, you can download the free update to allow for warp point import at

 

http://www.nbos.com/download/Astro110UPD.exe

 

You can cut-and-paste the above sample, save it in text format (in Notepad works great) and then import into your Astrosynthesis to see what it looks like.

 

I'll finish off the export routine in the next couple of days - I have to say, with a large map the stars and warp lines do look pretty cool in Astrosynthesis

 

Reflections on the Patch

 

You can add new stars and warp points from within Astrosynthesis, and move them as desired.

 

I could store the stars already exported to you on this end, so the next time you wanted an export only new stars (not already exported) would be sent to you. They'd be at 0.0.0 and you could then just add them to your edited (with your XYZ's) file, edit them to some new place and go from there. New warp lines is the real key to this, as it would free you from adding newly surveyed warp points. However, if you had labels on what used to be one-way warp points (because you hadn't surveyed the way back yet) and that connection is now two-way (because you just surveyed the way back), that old label would still be there. You'd have to kill that old warp connection or otherwise update your map to be accurate with the new information.

 

Dragging stars from within Astrosynthesis works fine - but you'd want to update your export csv file with any moved stars' new locations if you ever wanted to merge your star file with another player's.

 

Right now I only export star and warp point information as there is no way to import planet and fleet data from within Astrosynthesis.

 

The warp lines overlap (two-way warp lines within Astrosynthesis go right over each other), so placing labels and/or warp point classes is a bit tricky. There would have to be labels for one-way lines, or some sort of combined label for two-way lines. That can really clutter up the map, though. An alternative would be to use the pathfinding program created by one player for your movements. Though we can't officially sanction player created programs as being absolutely bulletproof/secure, it is very cool, providing shortest-routes and lowest-fuel-routes between any set of stars that you've surveyed. In conjunction with the cool-looking Astrosynthesis maps, it's a powerful combination for turn planning.

 

I'd like to say presto! Here's a current export with fully accurate XYZ and warp point lines. Survey some new stars or warp points? No problem! Toss out your old map and here's a new one! But....giving out exact, correct, guaranteed-to-be-accurate maps from this end has some very serious downsides.

 

Now, if I knew what XYZ's you had assigned to your stars, I could store that on this end and on any new export I'd assign your XYZ's to your known stars, and 0.0.0. to all new stars. Actually, I'd probably assign then random X and Y coordinates, with a large Z coordinate to make them stand out on your new map. They'd be connected as usual by a warp point, and you could drag as desired. Warp points are no issue, as they always rubber-band between stars, not caring about locations. You'd have to issue some kind of a new order to update star locations (an LC type of thing that had lots of entry boxes as you might well have a ton of stars), but that would mean you'd have to enter some new orders to fix those XYZ's...not sure if people would want to do that or not. In this case updates from here would be a snap.

 

I'd say this last solution would be ideal, as it eliminates a lot of tedium when you survey new stars. It does, however, have the drawback that you'd need to issue some orders to initially set those XYZ's, and another order now and then to update them if you ever wanted the master database (here) to know that you moved some stars. Otherwise the next time you got a star map, your stars would snap back to whatever XYZ's you had initially assigned to them.

[ali-t-akua]

Excel spreadsheets and a handdrawn map.

 

Not the best way I am sure but it has worked for me.

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

I couldn't get Astrosynth to work, so I'm using GraphViz. Don't remember where I got it but it's been mentioned on the boards before. And if you think it's good for maps, you oughta see how good it makes the tech tree look!

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Excel's the one for us...

 

By using the Drawing toolbar we have text boxes (coloured to taste) for systems and use the 'connectors' to represent the links. This way they can be moved round to cope with new information.

 

Comments in the cells behind the systems contain the WP data.

 

Each 'system' text box is hyperlinked to other tables and/or Word documents storing all the system information.

 

Smaller text boxes act just like map pins.....(we're just old-fashioned that way)..

 

Chief Cartographer to Ur-Lord Tedric

[Drasn]

I couldn't get Astrosynth to work, so I'm using GraphViz.  Don't remember where I got it but it's been mentioned on the boards before.  And if you think it's good for maps, you oughta see how good it makes the tech tree look!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. I'm using graphviz for my maps and tech trees too. The auto layout feature is exceptional and would make this package worth it if it had nothing else to offer.

[Prospective]

Ok, so where can I get either Astrosynth or GraphViz, and how much do they cost?

 

Also, can the information (name, WP#, Class, size and direction) be printed out (and be useful)? I don't like being tied to the computer and prefer the info to be displayed on paper so I can work on it where ever I wish.

 

Thanks.

[cestvel]

Ok, so where can I get either Astrosynth or GraphViz, and how much do they cost? 

 

Also, can the information (name, WP#, Class, size and direction) be printed out (and be useful)?  I don't like being tied to the computer and prefer the info to be displayed on paper so I can work on it where ever I wish.

 

Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

GraphViz is from AT&T (now put into the public) and cost nothing.

 

You can find it here: http://www.graphviz.org/

 

 

Cestvel

[ali-t-akua]

Ok, so where can I get either Astrosynth or GraphViz, and how much do they cost? 

 

Also, can the information (name, WP#, Class, size and direction) be printed out (and be useful)?  I don't like being tied to the computer and prefer the info to be displayed on paper so I can work on it where ever I wish.

 

Thanks.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

GraphViz is from AT&T (now put into the public) and cost nothing.

 

You can find it here: http://www.graphviz.org/

 

 

Cestvel

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Thanks Cestvel. I took a quick look at the software and it looks great. Plus its free. I think I will be tossing my handdrawn maps.

[EternusIV]

That At&T program is pretty nifty!

 

Slick 2d mapping solution. Very cool

 

I can see why some people prefer this program to Astrsynth (but I still love the 3-d astrosynth features and sci-fi-ish options )

 

The 'Dotty' subprogram seems the slickest (cool how you can move it around)

[ali-t-akua]

The 'Dotty' subprogram seems the slickest (cool how you can move it around)

 

In fact for the Unix challenged I have found the dotty program the way to go.

[Krelnett_of_Kraan]

The 'Dotty' subprogram seems the slickest (cool how you can move it around)

 

In fact for the Unix challenged I have found the dotty program the way to go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We prefer typing in our own code. Dotty is sloppy. We also like that we can color- and shape-code our techs based on whether they're ship components, generational techs, etc.

On the mapping side, we use the "neato" algorithm, as it produces the cleanest maps. We can also color-code our warp by class (A, B, etc) and shape the heads for confirmed one-way points. We shape-code the systems based on whether or not they're nexi or planetary systems, color-code them based on whether we have colonies there (or would like to), whether we've encountered cookies there, etc.

The only thing we don't like is that warp point labels overlap too much to be legible, so we still need to keep referring to our warp point listings inthe PDF to move ships around.

[cestvel]

The 'Dotty' subprogram seems the slickest (cool how you can move it around)

 

In fact for the Unix challenged I have found the dotty program the way to go.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We prefer typing in our own code. Dotty is sloppy. We also like that we can color- and shape-code our techs based on whether they're ship components, generational techs, etc.

On the mapping side, we use the "neato" algorithm, as it produces the cleanest maps. We can also color-code our warp by class (A, B, etc) and shape the heads for confirmed one-way points. We shape-code the systems based on whether or not they're nexi or planetary systems, color-code them based on whether we have colonies there (or would like to), whether we've encountered cookies there, etc.

The only thing we don't like is that warp point labels overlap too much to be legible, so we still need to keep referring to our warp point listings inthe PDF to move ships around.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Maybe this little program can help you there: http://www.cestvel.de/dl/SNFindPath.zip

 

Its a little program which knowns your WPs.

 

Cestvel

[Commander Azuth]

I've looked at the Graphviz program and it looks promising. My problem is - - how the heck does this work.

 

I would appreciate it if someone could explain this non-programmer how to use it.

 

I downloaded the graphviz-2.2.1.exe file and installed it. I'm assuming this is the correct one.

 

Thanks.

[Lord Uriel]

I have to agree with you Azuth, I have no idea how to use this.