Variant Technology

[Magus666]

Since I am a new player (still awaiting receipt of my setup and first turn), perhaps this question will get resolved when I see my setup materials. However, while I am waiting, I cant help but consider the issue of "variant technology" for different races and empires.

 

I have reviewed most of the documents and aids available on this site, including the ones on industry and on the items that one can build and research. What struck me was the strictly "mechanistic" method of item building, and the repeated mention of the nearly unlimited need for iron and steel production.

 

By the "mechanistic" method, I mean - Locate or create some Iron: Convert it to steel: Beat it into some shape: Add other constructed parts: Build a completed item. This seems to be the default method of creating everything from space vessels to most ground type units (or at least their weaponry and transport). But what about other...possibly just as valid and effective...methods?

 

In particular, what I was considering was Biology and Bio-engineering (not neccesarily GENETIC engineering, although this would follow along as tech increased). Take, as an example, a race of intelligent saurians...evolved dinosaurs. They are very intelligent, very organized and very competative...but unfortunately they come from a world natively very poor in metals (or perhaps they just CHOSE a different path). Instead of learning to bend and shape metal...they learned to bend and shape the plants and animals around them, through breeding and other programs.

 

The basic CONCEPTS dont change much, but the methods change. Installations arent BUILT...they are GROWN. Ground units still benefit from combined arms...but instead of building Tanks and Helicopters of steel, we have specially bred Triceratops and Pteranodons. Who needs to string Razor Wire, when you can grow vines of Ivy with razor sharp thorns overnight?

 

Even spaceships would be grown, living things, rather than cold composites of unliving chunks. This is fairly common in mainstream Sci-fi. Moya (from Farscape) and Lexx (from Lexx) are living spacecraft, as are the ships in the Nights Dawn trilogy and many others.

 

In the end, the mechanics wouldnt change TOO much. A division of Triceratops is still an Armor division, and a living ship would still have to be "built" (grown) at a shipyard at the standard rate. But what WOULD change would be the dependence on a single resourse (iron) as the defining characteristic of the empires growth.

 

 

 

Magus666

[Lord Uriel]

Well, you'll see it when you get your turns, but if you want to call your steel some sort of uber bone, then go ahead. I don't believe anyone will fire you.

[Damiano]

What no one ever seems to talk about in sci-fi is that all these bio ships are supposed to be much better than steel etc, but from an engineering point of view how are they going to be better? the ships keel is made from a giant backbone rather than a reinforced steel spine? there are rarely if ever any rapid transit tubes in a bio ships, so in a ship that size how do a crew move around quickly with no lifts? How do you power ships weapons?

 

I've got no problem with anyone adding flavour in this matter, but I've always though bio is better than technology is a flawed concept.

[ali-t-akua]

In the end, the mechanics wouldnt change TOO much. A division of Triceratops is still an Armor division, and a living ship would still have to be "built" (grown) at a shipyard at the standard rate. But what WOULD change would be the dependence on a single resourse (iron) as the defining characteristic of the empires growth.

 

I think you are dramatically oversimplifying an empire's dependence on Iron. You need many other resources in order to successfully build up your empire. Crystals, Timber, Radiioactives, Gaseous Elements, Petrochemicals, Industrial Chemicals, Rare Elements to name a few are also needed for building the various items you create to build up your empire. Couple that with an extremely deep tech tree and an nearly infinite number of ship designs that you can create and you have a level of depth that can keep you very busy planning and executing.

[Magus666]

Well, my point was not to imply that biological based technology was BETTER than "mechanical" technology - Simply an ALTERNATIVE. In many ways, a biologically based system may be inferior to a mechanical one...and in others, superior. As an example, take the Triceratops Armor Division I mentioned above. Such a living "tank" would most likely not be able to match an equivalent tech level's mechanical tank in terms of armor, firepower or level terrain speed. However, it would be far better at handling broken and variable terrains, and having "tanks" that can heal themselves after taking damage, and can GRAZE for their "fuel" would be some advantage.

 

Your comments about the methodologies of biological technology are valid...but miss the point. WE (as humans, from a mechanical technology) have trouble visualizing these things. How WOULD you power weapons without mechanical generators, batteries, etc? But a being from a BIOLOGICALLY based technology might have the same questions about our technology. "How can you possibly store power for your weapons in a little box full of rocks?"

 

Transport doesnt seem like a difficult concept with a living ship. EVERY living thing has transport systems built into its body - Digestion, Circulation, etc. With the right knowhow in biology, it seems quite likely that such a system could be modified to move crew and equiptment around a living ship.

 

And as for weaponry...well it's known that Dolphins can use sonar to stun fish...and the Electric Eel? SN allready has shipboard Sonic and Electrical weapons systems. These seem like very likely candidates for living weapons. Of course many species are known for being able to spit acids, venoms, or other toxic materials. Biological Torpedoes? A wad of corrosive material might not have the immediate destructive impact of a HE warhead, but again...no one said that Bio systems were BETTER. Just different.

 

In any case, no, I dont suppose anyone would really CARE if I said that my "tanks" were in fact, biologically engineered Triceratops, or that my spaceships were living creatures. What DOES make a difference is the dependence on iron and steel as the basic component. On the other hand...OTHER basic resources...such as the FERTILIZERS that many empires have lying around by the tons...would become very valuable as primary building materials. Imagine the trade possiblilities "You want to give us 500,000 tons of Plant Food....for some rocks we have? You have a deal!!"

[Damiano]

Fair comment, my position is flawed in that sci-fi invariable puts humanoids as working within a living ship where they would be merely parasites, a true living ship would be crewed only by the ship itself, and move it's lymphocytes and platelets the same way we do.

 

The main issue is of course balance, I was horrified when I played death machines in SNII that they still had to research medical science etc to get the same tech breakthroughs as other species, similarly in SN:ROTE herbivorous races and photosynthesising plants still have to include meat in their food concentrates just to balance the game (and simplify it).

 

My main objection is how anything can 'live' in space that originated on a planet, even one like mine when the HW temperature is only 59K Brr! Chilly today or what, my eyes just froze again.

[hobknob]

I would say that iron and steel are just simple terms for Resource A and Component A. They are a fixed "something" that you need alot of in order to build what ever it is that you want to build.

 

It would be nice to have different lifeform types that had different basic needs as that would put different values on the same piece of realestate.

 

Unfortunately that idea will have to go into the hopper as a good one to be considered for the next incarnation of SN, along with hundreds of other good ideas that either didn't make it into this game, or have been suggested as improvements to the current version.

 

One problem I see with the Alternative approach though. If your tech is based in the biological rather than the mechanical, how would you ever trade any tech to a mechanical based empire? It does become rather difficult when you have multiple systems possible to devise mechanisms to allow trade.

 

One of the underlying problems with the current system is the lack of any use for some of the stuff we have. From a purely practical point of view, if you have it you will use it. I have over 50M fibers sitting around and until 2 turns ago they were almost useless. Now they have some use, but not much. From the practical view I would think that having that kind of abundent resource would have inspired the great minds to use it for something. Fixing this issue so that there is a good use for everything would solve part of your issue as you would naturally gravitate down the paths of the most benefit for you.

 

[Laserwolf]

Fair comment, my position is flawed in that sci-fi invariable puts humanoids as working within a living ship where they would be merely parasites, a true living ship would be crewed only by the ship itself, and move it's lymphocytes and platelets the same way we do.

 

My main objection is how anything can 'live' in space that originated on a planet, even one like mine when the HW temperature is only 59K Brr! Chilly today or what, my eyes just froze again.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Like the Cylon living ships... the living BaseStars and the resurrection raiders...

[WKE235]

What no one ever seems to talk about in sci-fi is that all these bio ships are supposed to be much better than steel etc, but from an engineering point of view how are they going to be better? the ships keel is made from a giant backbone rather than a reinforced steel spine? there are rarely if ever any rapid transit tubes in a bio ships, so in a ship that size how do a crew move around quickly with no lifts? How do you power ships weapons?

 

I've got no problem with anyone adding flavour in this matter, but I've always though bio is better than technology is a flawed concept.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, we know some things in nature a naturally better than whatever science has so far come up with. Spider silk being the most widely known example (still no clear understanding on why it's so tough yet flexible). So the potential for bio to be great is there. You just have to take it beyond the level of simply being organic.

 

For example, imagine if you will something growing a bone per a design, yet making that bone out of carbon, iron, titanium materials (instead of Calcium). That is, you could have an organic designed to weave these materials together to create the "bone". In the end you have something made of the same tech materials you use today, but, the weaving leaves the result lighter and stronger. Of course, you could probably do the same thing (eventually) using Nano-machines. In that case you would be using tiny, micro items to build the "bone", as opposed to some macro-size organic extruding the constructed bone.

[LenLorek]

... What DOES make a difference is the dependence on iron and steel as the basic component.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

10 Raw Materials can be made into basic resource -- such as Iron or an Iron-substiute. You can view the Iron-substitute to be just as good as Iron, and therefore put into the same category as "Iron" in your Stockpiles, and can be traded as being "Iron".

 

On your world, "Stripmines" may be stripping the local vegetation of organic materials (seeds) that are then processed into a suitable Raw Material (genetically-modified seeds) that is in turn passed to Industry (hot houses) to "grow" into a living Iron-substitute, which can then be further treated by Industry to become a living Steel-substitute.

 

Your world is your own. Your imagination is your own. But for game simplicity and balance, SNROTE items produced on one world are equivalent to those produced on any other world, whatever you imagine the production methods to be.

[ShadowKitsune]

I concur with previous posters - there aren't alternative systems in SN:ROTE (i.e. Organic Technology) mostly for play-balance and simplicity. While some may argue that SN:ROTE is far from a simple game, I will state that it could be far more complex.

 

A lot of 'realism' is forsaken for simplicity's sake in this game. Keeping with your Iron and Steel example, it takes 3 units (tons) of Iron to make 1 unit (ton) of Steel. Why doesn't it take 2 units of Iron + 1 unit of Coal to make 1 unit of Steel? Modern [Earth] Steel requires both Iron and Carbon, but not Steel in SN:ROTE.

 

Why do all of the Empires use the same units of measure? 1000 tons of Iron in my Empire is, theoretically, equivalent to 1000 tons of Iron in your Empire. No pounds versus kilograms exchange issues in this universe. Did we all secretly sign the Universal Units of Weights and Measures Treaty of Aldebaran? No. It just makes it easier to deal with if everyone is assumed to be using the same units of measure.

 

Why do all of the components [of the same name] hold the same capacity? Do the same damage? Have the same power rating? For example, regardless of the size of your race and the size of my race, a Colonial Berthing made by you can hold as many Colonists as a Colonial Berthing made by me, even if your people are Huge and my people are Tiny. Is this realistic? No, but again, it makes the game easier to play.

 

Would it be interesting if you could follow an Organic Tech path? I think so. It may get added in the future. I doubt it, but it might.

 

As an aside, welcome to the game!

 

-SK

[ali-t-akua]

Why do all of the Empires use the same units of measure?

 

Since we are all descended from the T'ckon Empire and, according to certain documents, we had retained some technology from that empire, I am not surprised that the measurement system would have been retained. Some knowledge would have to have carried over and standardized dimensions are crucial to be able to transmit the knowledge in a usable manner.

[Magus666]

Oh, I agree. Playbalance is certainly an important element, as is playability. If things get TOO complicated, people won't want to play in a game they can't understand. Keeping weights and measures the same is just for convenience. Having equivalent units seems logical from a playbalance standpoint too. However, I dont think that the option of variant technology would be unbalancing or overly complex.

 

From a REALLY long time ago, I played a space empire PBM (before there WAS email ) that was similar to SN in alot of ways. You could design your lifeform from scratch, etc. But in this one, you could choose what kind of planet you came from...hot, moderate, or cold. Based on that, you would be set on one of three different types of technology (hot, chemical, or cold) with parallel paths. I could see something like that working here...with a choice in setup of tech path : Mechanical, Organic, or...whatever (Psionic/Magic?).

 

Again, since I have not even seen my first turn yet, I dont know alot of how things are really working in SN - just what Ive read in the rules, supplements, and forums. Which raises the question: How badly WOULD I be screwing myself over (under the current ruleset) if I DID choose to go down a more "organic" tech path, putting most of my research into medicine, genetic engineering and such things at the expense of the more "mechanistic" tech trees? Naturally I would still need basic tech in the mechanical trees and basic materials to make them since there IS no "organic" alternative to building a spaceship (for example) <Unless of course, you manage to follow the Telekinetics path to its extreme...and learn to Teleport?>

[hobknob]

That is the way that SNII was. You picked a lifeform type and which had a tech path type. I believe there were 4 to choose from including, cold, nuclear, transmutation and hot. All your weapons and like advancements were based on your chosen tech type.

 

Under that format you researched horizon techs and things would spontaneously appear when your point levels got high enough.

 

It was also fun, but had certain limitations.

 

[ali-t-akua]

Again, since I have not even seen my first turn yet, I dont know alot of how things are really working in SN - just what Ive read in the rules, supplements, and forums. Which raises the question: How badly WOULD I be screwing myself over (under the current ruleset) if I DID choose to go down a more "organic" tech path, putting most of my research into medicine, genetic engineering and such things at the expense of the more "mechanistic" tech trees? Naturally I would still need basic tech in the mechanical trees and basic materials to make them since there IS no "organic" alternative to building a spaceship (for example) <Unless of course, you manage to follow the Telekinetics path to its extreme...and learn to Teleport?>

 

In my opinion, I think what you research is a personal decision based on the path you have chosen, ie warrior, colonizer, brain in a jar, etc.. Personally I would research at least a weapons path, armor, engines, sensors and computers along with a couple of horizon techs and some Improved Materials. I also have followed the path to Improved Stripmines and Improved Industrial Complexes to ensure I have increased production capacity. Of course to each his own but the path you proposed will help in colonization and possibly improved research capability but will leave you vulnerable to a militaristic neighbor.

 

You don't follow the Telekinetics path to Teleport. There are other research paths that lead to Matter Transmission. I can't tell you too much about it as I do not know any details.

 

Under that format you researched horizon techs and things would spontaneously appear when your point levels got high enough.

I played in SN 1 a long time ago. When you got enough points in that game you also opened up new ship classes. Was that true in SN2 as well?