Saved set-up points? How many?

[WKE235]

Not counting techs I have received from SRP's, I have completed 55 techs over 22 turns, or around 2.5 techs per turn. Now I have gotten those techs with maxed research bonuses .. and I have researched a LOT of cheap techs (anything three RC or less and I have it). Of course earlier I was had a 10 turn running average of 3 per turn due to the cheap stuff. So the overall rate is dropping .. and I'm getting less and less every turn .. as I get into the more expensive techs.

 

Now if the average were to drop to say 1 tech per turn on average for someone with maxed Research Bonuses -- I'd be a frustrated tech junkie .. but I could live with it. Just the techs sitting on my current R&D list would take 4 years to research at an average of 1 per turn. But 4 years seems at least feasiable. My fear given the rumors of costs for 3rd, 4th, and higher techs is that average will drop much further .. down to 0.1 tech per turn on average .. or less! Which is why I'm proud to be a member of SAFER. Slowing down as we get to heavier techs is OK. Slowing down to the point that snails are whizzing by laughing is not OK.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Okay, then it's the battle of the millenium. The lucky bit being that the GMs are on our side!!!

 

So, I hereby form the SAVER group (that's Skill Application Versus Easy Research).

 

The similarity of the name is deliberate, because we all want the same thing really - a damn good game!

 

For too many years to count I have played games of so many various types, many of which end up being dissapointing due to one of two things. One is a loophole, or mechanism, which, once known and exploited ruins the game. The other is the effect of 'magic', or too rapid tech advance, which often becomes a completely dominating factor in a way that often destroys a players position very quickly, to the point where there is no way to carry on.

 

Either way, the game then becomes a race to achieve rapid dominance, or get to the point to exploit the mechanism. The games that I personally enjoy have something different. They have a need for skill and thought. Where Strategy takes a big part.

 

An excellent example of this is Starweb. Such a wonderfully simple game, but with so much to offer. Chess & Go are at the extreme of this genre. Ridgid rules, no loopholes and just pure skill.

 

It has sometimes been frustrating over the last 10 months (for me) and I benefitted from the posts of the first few - THANKS

 

However, this game is different and I love it. Every 2 weeks can't come round quick enough. The slow start allows everyone to make mistakes and get comfortable in the game universe. It is a game to make you play for years and one of the results of the lack of fast dominating tech, is that players may be around long enough to play for those years - they won't be immediately trounced by the first warlike bunch they meet. They'll have a chance to come back fighting.

 

It's also much more about trade and player co-operation. Real alliances that mean something, but where individuals still flourish. The routes to 'winning' this game will be many and varied and I don't think the last man/alliance standing is one of them. This is a true 'open-ended space opera' and I hope you can never research the whole tech tree!

 

So, vote for SAVER not SAFER! Take a risk, safe is boring!

 

Ur-Lord Tedric and his merry men

[hobknob]

For a little perspective, a position with max reserach bonus and very few global points, <25, has averaged 1.72 tech advances/turn while a a position with no RB and ample global points to spend has averaged 1.95 advances/turn.

 

[ShadowKitsune]

FWIW - My Empire with less than maximum research bonuses, but no research penalties, and less than 5 saved points is averaging 1.1 Techs/Turn.

 

I'm not advocating an order of magnitude increase for Research Centers nor the ability to build more than the starting twenty-five (25). I am advocating that The Powers That Be merely double the output of RCs from their current rate. I don't think that it will take away from the application of Strategy or Skill in SN:ROTE in any significant way, while it will increase the fun factor for everybody, especially for the tech junkies.

 

I can only go with the numbers for my Empire, and your mileage may vary, but the fastest I have researched anything using a single RC, which is by definition the most efficient level an RC can run at, took me three (3) turns - Superconductor, for the curious, was the Technology. It took my Empire ten (10) turns to successfully research 2nd Generation Space Science, even with the first turn boost of having four (4) RCs assigned to it. I'm still working on 3rd Generation Space Science, twelve turns and counting...

 

Anyhow, if you go with the SAFER plan, it would have taken my empire 1.5 turns (which rounds up to 2) for Superconductor and five (5) turns for 2nd Gen Space Science. I really don't think that is going to put SN:ROTE onto a slippery slope to the Dread Tech-dominating Tailspin of Doom. :lol:

 

Again, I see your point with games like Starweb (by Flying Buffalo), Chess and Go, but I think you missed mine. I don't feel that the analogy is entirely applicable because you can know how all of the pieces move and interact in Starweb, Chess and Go; you get all of the rules upfront. You don't get that with SN:ROTE.

 

The game is currently in a quasi-playtest enviroment, so modifications are being made as situations warrant. For example, the addition of the 'psychic' resources: Garoxx Jewels, Jinn Crystals and Tritantalum. The game was meant to start with them, but it didn't, and they were added after the fact. Every race/empire who started after the addition 'knew' these three technologies. All the previously established races had to learn them like any other unknown technology. No big deal if you weren't a psychic race, but that was three turns that three RCs were being used in order to access the psychic technologies that your race had already paid for by purchasing one or more of the psychic abilities available. Currently Pete is working on upgrading, or tweaking - if you prefer, the PC-to-PC Diplomacy order. [Thanks Pete! ] Is my point that the game is broke? Not on your life! My point is that modifications and changes will occur in SN:ROTE and that sometimes these changes inconvenience some of the players. I just feel strongly that the doubling of everyone's RC production should be one of those changes and that while this might ruffle a few of the established players feathers, more good than harm will come of it.

 

<deep breath> Dang! I sure can run at the mouth.

[Galvorn]

My average is 1.45 Tech/turn with less than 10 saved points and all but one of the research bonus. Slow and steady. I do wish I had saved more points if I had it to do over again. Probably place some in colonization and research and save the rest.

 

Galvorn

[hobknob]

The fastest I have seen is 2 turns at 1 RC/turn for superconductors. For most people this is a 3 or 4 turn item. :lol:

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Ho Shadowman,

 

Many of your points are cogent and accurate and I agree most wholeheartedly. One of the things that does frustrate me a tad (and I'm a Turn 3 starter and so benefitted from the 3 x Resources you mention, but not the single Pop Gp) is that we are the early starters and are finding out everything for the later comers. One of these things is the tech tree.

 

Sadly, I know from many games that the tech tree will become known to later starters who will benefit from the knowledge that we gather. It would be nice to keep it secret, but a lot will get out. People will join groups like ISIS just to get that information and probably not contribute much at all. In fact it might be that these groups/alliances stop recruiting just for this reason.

 

So at present, whilst the jury's still out on exactly what the multiple RC formula is (and the GMs could tell us so that we can argue this issue to a good conclusion for all), it does seem that it's another 'reducing curve effect' like others in the game.

 

Therefore, whilst I still propound the SAVER way and would be very unhappy to see a massive change such as doubling the rate of research, I'd like to make a counter-proposal to see if there's a middle ground?

 

How about making the 'reducing' curve less steep, or by making the effect linear, but with penalties (like say 50% for the 2nd and subsequent RCs)? That way you could get tech quicker and more predictably, but, whilst you could halve the time to get techs by putting 3 RCs on something, you would fall behind in the long term and so still get almost exactly the same effect that the GMs are trying to create.

 

Another benefit of this is that, for those of us with no SRP, or none left by now, when a tech is discovered that you want desperately you have a sensible decision to make over just how quickly you want it , versus the penalty (possibly short) that it gives.

 

FWIW, my research rate is calculated at the end of a research cycle and the only way to keep the average high is to have mostly single RCs on a tech at a time (which is what the GMs seem to want).

[WKE235]

FWIW, my research rate is calculated at the end of a research cycle and the only way to keep the average high is to have mostly single RCs on a tech at a time (which is what the GMs seem to want).

Actually, I think what RTG wants to see happen is for players to specialize and start using multiple RC's to get to techs .

 

For example, lets sat there are some techs out there called Vorlon Energy Blast and Heavy Vorlon Energy Blast. Now, you could try to get these techs using 1 RC per turn. If the respective costs for the techs are 50 RC and 60 RC .. it will take 4+ years at 1 RC per turn to get the tech. And these techs will open up further items down the tree that cost even more. Going down the branch of a tree to better and better techs at one RC per turn could take a VERY long time.

 

The only way to accomplish such research in more reasonable times would be to use multiple RC's, which then limits the branchs you can follow. In essesence the game is oriented so that the more you specialize, the sooner you will get higher techs -- but the trade-off is you get less tech advances. To make up for that you need to learn how to trade for the other techs with someone who also specializes, probably multiple players.

 

Also, I think the penalties for multiple RC use are very severe. Something along the lines of the Square root of the RC's has been mentioned in other threads. RTG does not want people to do 1 RC per turn. The game is designed to severely limit tech growth as you get to the 3rd generation techs and past.

[ShadowKitsune]

Tedric my good man,

 

I agree that we are debating in a bubble, as it were, since we don't actually have the exact multiple RC reduction formula.

 

Your proposal is actually more generous than mine. :lol: If I understand it correctly. Under the SAVER compromise, the multiple RC formula becomes:

 

rc1 + [(rc2 + rc3 + ... +rc25) * 50%] = RC Output

 

Where if I put all 25 RCs on the same Technology for one turn, it would generate the equivalent output as 1 RC for 13 Turns.

 

While under the original SAFER proposal, assuming the square root reduction formula:

 

sqrt(total RCs * 2) = RC Output

 

Where if I put all 25 RCs on the same Technology for one turn, it would generate the equivalent output as 1 RC for 7, actually the square root of 50, Turns.

 

Okay, you have swayed me. I'll go for the modified 50% effectiveness plan proposed by SAVER.

 

SK

[Ur Lord Tedric]

While under the original SAFER proposal, assuming the square root reduction formula:

 

sqrt(total RCs * 2) = RC Output

 

Where if I put all 25 RCs on the same Technology for one turn, it would generate the equivalent output as 1 RC for 7, actually the square root of 50, Turns.

 

Okay, you have swayed me. I'll go for the modified 50% effectiveness plan proposed by SAVER. 

 

Now that's not fair.....!!! (we need a flying teddy bear! )

 

I assumed, as I'll bet many other's did, that you meant "Doubling the RC output", which is what I'm sure you meant......?

 

The formula I thought you proposed was 2*SQRT(total RCs).

 

Whilst I know the true formula is not known (come on Pete & Russ, we could discuss this really rationally if we knew - and it'll be common knowledge very soon!) if is truly is SQRT(total RCs), then I'll jump down on the side of saying that's too draconian a reduction.

 

If so, then that will mean putting all 25 RCs on even one level 2 tech will take me 2 turns! Whereas I can happly live with getting 25 level 2 techs in 10 turns (and that's with my medium bonuses). If a tech is 50 RCPoints, then 10 turns with all 25 just to get it in not far off a year, is a step too far for me as well!

 

So, perhaps we can try to persuade the GMs to go for the combined SAFER and SAVER plans?

 

Shall we try a poll? RCPoints = (total RCs + 1) * 0.5..........????

[ShadowKitsune]

It all depends on where you put the multiplier, I guess. :lol:

 

Even if you go with [sqrt(Total RCs)]*2, the best you can get is 10 RCs worth per turn. The SAVER plan still generates more (13 v. 10), plus is easier on ye olde grey matter.

 

You have my vote for the equation: RC Output = 1 + (Total RCs-1)*50%

 

To the Pub!

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Well, I must humbly admit that the idea of (25+1)*0.5 = 13 (which is the apparent number for a race with no enhancements to gain a level 2 tech), was part of the plan - it seemed so logical.

 

So, we've convinced each other and hopefully not encroached too much on the game design - how do we convince the GMs?

 

BTW - I'm becoming less and less happy over the effect of Saved Set-up points vs spending them on your race......

 

I'll definitely have something to say about it next year!

 

And, yes, have a cold one on me...

[Locklyn]

As I've said earlier I think tech races are penalised in the game considering what you pay for the int and sens modifiers compared to colonisers who save SRPs and can both outresearch you and outcolonise you in short order. There is also a lot of confusion on the RC matter as Pete has said that you should A) Keep to one RC for maximum effect and gain Never go beyond three RCs on the same tech since you get penalised and C) Use four or more RCs for higher tech levels...now that makes me confused...a lot...which has been the case for the Gremloid nation for the last six months. With EXPLs being decapitated and SRPs being the thing for getting tech fast, there seems to be very little point in going the research route, well in 100 turns when the other empires SRPs have run out but then you'll probably already be blasted out of space by the their Spinal Nova Cannons...

 

I'd like tech looked at again, explained or at least sincerely discussed by Pete. I redress my opininon that it would be a good thing for Pete to state his "mission plan" with SNROE on the boards. What his thoughts on the various game mechanics were, fears and hopes, lessons learned from old SNII (Desert-Island world) problems and the whole SRP issue.

 

And yes I was one of those who sensibly designed my race and had 30 SRPs to save...

 

/Locklyn

[ShadowKitsune]

Locklyn,

 

I have to disagree that you are penalized for taking the higher Intelligence and Sensory ratings, because they give you more than just a Research Bonus. However, I do wonder if Long Life Span is worth the 250 points, since you seem to get more bang for your buck with Radiation Tolerant (270 points). Now if you're actually saying that you think the cost for Research Bonuses are too high in comparison to the actual effect garnered, I am more inclined to support you.

 

I think one of my issues is lack of understanding on the Rate of Return for my Racial Feature investments. For example, let's say you have three races who are identical with the exception of their Intelligence rating:

 

Boxarocks - Slow (-740) - Saved Points: 1850

Ordinaries - Average (0) - Saved Points: 1110

Brainiacs - Phenomenal (+1110) - Saved Points: 0

 

Let's assume that 2nd Generation technologies require 12 RCs worth of Research to achieve and every generation thereafter requires twice as much as the generation before (i.e. 3rd Gen - 24RCs; 4th Gen - 48RCs ...). Similarly, let's assume that to generate 12 RCs worth of research using one RC takes the Ordinaries 12 turns, the Boxarocks 13 turns and the Brainiacs 11 turns. (Go Brainiacs! ) Finally, let's use the square root formula of multiple RC production (e.g. sqrt(total RCs) = RCs of output; 1 RC in = 1 RC out, 4 RCs in = 2 RCs out ... 25 RCs in = 5 RCs out)

 

Now, based on those assumptions, the most efficient way for the Brainiacs to do research is to put one tech on each RC. So that's 25 Techs in 11 Turns, a little over a 2 Tech/turn average.

 

Let's look at the Ordinaries, how long will it take them to achieve at least 25 2nd Gen Techs? Twenty-five (25) 2nd Gen Techs (12 RCs) requires a total output of 300 RCs, which is less than the 1110 saved points the Ordinaries have so they won't run out before they reach their 25 Techs. The Ordinaries also decide to use a one-slot per tech methodology. After 11 Turns, they have the 11 Techs from Slot 1 (using SRPs) and nothing else. The Braniacs are ahead at this point. After 12 Turns, the Ordinaries have 36 Techs, 24 from Slots 2-24 and 12 from Slot 1. Wow! In one turn the Ordinaries went from being behind 14 Techs to ahead by 11, with a 3 Tech/Turn average.

 

Okay, now for the Boxarocks, they have even more SRPs than the Ordinaries, so they're golden there. Using 1 RC per tech, they are even with the Ordinaries after 11 Turns and behind the Brainiacs after 11 turns. After 12 turns, they are behind both the Brainiacs and the Ordinaries with their puny 12 Techs. After 13 Turns, they pull ahead with 37 Techs, which is 1 more than the Ordinaries and 22 more than the Brainiacs with an average of 2.8 Techs/turn.

 

After 13 Turns, it's Brainiacs 25 - Ordinaries 36 - Boxarocks 37.

 

If everybody shifts to 3rd Gen Tech after finishing their 2nd Gen Techs, let's see what happens.

 

After 22 Turns, the Brainiacs have 25 3rd Gen Techs.

After 24 Turns, the Ordinaries have 42 3rd Gen Techs. Their SRPs ran out after 18 turns.

After 26 Turns, the Boxarocks have 50 3rd Gen Techs, plus 550 SRPs left!

 

Let's go to the final tally board -

 

After 39 Turns (19.5 Months):

 

The Brainiacs have 25 2nd Gen Techs, 25 3rd Gen Techs and are 6 turns into 4th Gen.

 

The Ordinaries have 36 2nd Gen Techs, 42 3rd Gen Techs and are 3 turns (and change) into 4th Gen.

 

The Boxarocks have 37 2nd Gen Techs, 50 3rd Gen Techs and haven't started 4th Gen.

 

Summary, the Brainiacs are 3 turns further into 4th Gen Tech and 28 Techs behind the Ordinaries and 6 turns further into 4th Gen and 37 Techs behind the Boxarocks while the Ordinaries are 3 turns further into 4th Gen and 9 Techs behind the Boxarocks. While the Boxarocks aren't the sharpest knife in the drawer, I think having the extra techs will help, especially if they find the Brainiacs before they get any of their 4th Gen research completed.

 

FWIW

[Laserwolf]

OK, what does this model say when you change Brainiacs from, 11 to 10 turns and Boxarocks from 13 to 14 turns for 39 turns and then at the 5 year mark?

 

~Laserwolf