Saved set-up points? How many?

[Tokmok]

What are the different opinions on Saved Research points?

Do they speed up the colonization-process? How many do you need for a good start?

 

Has any of you tried a lifeform with lots (more than 1300) saved research points? Does it give a quicker/better start or are only "so many" saved research points needed for a good start?

 

 

How much does a maxed-out Research bonus really matter, Speedwise?

 

Is it worth it to spend the extra 370 points on Phenomenal Int or are they better spend for SRP?

 

thanks

[lugal]

If I was going to do over again, I would put some points in research and colonization. Maybe inteligence and breathing. You get the bonuses in the two critical areas. But if you want to roleplay, I do, spend the points to have a fun race.

[hobknob]

I think that saved setup points are very valuable, however you can have too many of them and therby create a lifeform with lots of negatives. If I were to do it again I would try and keep between 200 and 400 points for research. Since you can only spend a few points a turn, 10-20 initially, it doesn't matter if you have 200 or 2000 points. The guy with 2000 points will still be trying to spend them 5 years down the road, but will only be able to buy lower grade tech items. There is a limit to what you can spend points on and meny folks have run into those limits.

 

As far as colonization goes, it is my opinion that saved research points don't give you much of an edge initially. If you are a colonizer, or want to be a colonizer the big consideration is setup. No tech out there that you can get with startup points will overcome a poor setup from a colonization point of view. You should get you biggest bang out of lifeform choices for colonization and not rely on tech to save you. While there is some nice tech to have, much of it is very expensive in terms of research and material costs.

 

[octagon999]

I agree with Hobknob.

 

If I had to do it over again, I would have more points saved.

 

On the other hand, I am SO GLAD I took most of the colonization items that I did. I have plenty of worlds to choose from, and much of the tech compensation is VERY expensive to build, and takes a long time to achieve.

[Ur Lord Tedric]

This is becoming a real interesting issue as I settled down to write Part 1 of a review of the game for Flagship.

 

I spent all of mine - exactly - and now regret that somewhat. Although, I know a lot more now!

 

The review's now done and will hopefully be published in the Sep/Oct issue. Pete & Russ also have a copy and they might put it in the 'download files area'

 

This time next year I plan to do a follow up in order to cover combat (of which I have no knowledge at all yet!) and diplomacy. After 50 turns I should also know a lot more about the Research side of life, and this is the big issue.

 

Those of us at the start are suffering from knowing so little. If I started another empire now then those SRP I'd keep would probably mean I caught up and surpassed my current empire in 20 turns flat. It does now seem that for every SRP you save, then that's one whole RC production point. I must admit that seems very generous. If you saved 1200 points then you could gain 100 lvl 2 techs by Slot 1'ng them in 100 turns, plus another 200 from your other RCs. Or you could buy yourself somewhat higher.

 

The one thing I'm holding on to is that higher up the tech trees you can genetically modify your race, but you can nenver have those 2000 points to spend - I do hope that makes a difference!

 

The other big element is your starting system. I've just discovered somewhere I'd rather have been 3 systems away. My own system had nowhere else I could live, this one had 9 and then more planets!

 

I'm determined to persevere with my empire and see if it really was good for the long term (spending all those points), perhaps I'll know more in another year!

[ShadowKitsune]

Ur Lord Tedric,

 

If you successfully research 1st Generation Species Engineering you can modify your race. I don't remember all the particulars 'cuz I don't have this technology, but it was posted on the 'old' ezBoard and I think it's also in the message archives of the SN_ROTE Yahoo!Group site. (Both of which were and are still open to the public.) :lol: I could go look ...

 

FYI

[WKE235]

Shadow .. your slipping. As the spokesbeing for SAFR (Sentient Association for Faster Research), you neglected to take this opportunity to metion to Ur Lord the associations policy that research production in SN: ROTE appears to be to slow. As a dues paying member (trust me, the lantinum is in the mail), I was hoping you would mention that as an added point to his concern about SRP, he may wish to discuss in his Flagship review the rapidly increasing research costs and the extreme natures taken to limit and control research in the game .. probably the most frustrating aspect of the entire game now, the thing most people complain about the most. You could also mention that certain purchased racial traits seem to be absurdly priced in relation to SRP and research. For example, you could mention how Phenomonal Sensory Perception is priced at 690 SP versus 1110 for Phenomonal Intelligence. And despite what the rule book says about +'s and pricing, it appears that Sensory gives the MORE bonuses at 690 than the 1110 for intelligence (an artificially increased price meant to discourage people from trying to get maximum research bonuses in the game, essentially penalizing them to a great degree if the try to do so).

[woolfe99]

To remain focused on the original topic, I'll give the original poster some blunt advice. Do NOT start with fewer than 200 SRP's, and more is better. I do agree with Hobnob about there being a diminishing return to the SRP's. The reason is that you seem to be precluded from "buying" any technologies at roughly 4th generation or higher (e.g. Mk IV). So at a certain point you'll want 4th generation techs, and the SRP's will only allow you to loop back and get more 2nd and 3rd. Since several technologies are at least partially redundant e.g. you may not want 9 different types of starship weapons), there will come a point of diminishing returns for SRPS. However, if you add up all the improved and advanced materials, all the second and third gen horizons tech, and everything else you may want, you'll find that you could legitimately keep yourself busy with useful advances up to 1000 SRP. Over 1000 SRP is probably penalizing your race too much relative to the marginal additional benefits. Under 200, well, just go ask some of the people who started the game with 0-100 SRP's and find out what their attitude is about research at the moment...

[Ur Lord Tedric]

 

We could really have some fun with this!

 

So, Dark Ninja and Black Hole, I'd better champion the 'SRPs are too generous and all research needs to be slowed down' camp. I may find my self a bit lonely there, but someone has to champion the under-dog.

 

As my review states, I'm all for slow-ER research as this is finally a game where it's become more meaningful.

 

Unless something goes horribly wrong, as of next turn I will have gained an average of 2.25 techs per turn. In the scheme of things that's really not too shabby. What rate would you actually like? And all of my advances have been through hard research. No SRPs for me. The only bonuses I've had were the ones I took in my race design. In fact the more I think about it, 2 techs per turn is still damn fast!

 

Let's hope the GMs jump in!

 

Chief Existentialist to Ur-Lord Tedric

[GsssShsst]

Ur-Lord Tedric,

 

I feel that your advisors are getting a little soft on this research issue. For the record, let me state that I had 50 SRP. I spent these in short order on 1st Gen Planetary Engineering (mistake), Mk II Nuke Engine, Mk II JSS, and the last of 'em on Mk I Fusion Engine. I personally feel I should kept many more points.

 

You say you are averaging 2.25 techs per turn. Well, I have been in the game for ten turns now, and my average now stands at 2.7 techs per turn. You would say that this is wonderful news, and on the surface this seems to be true. However, on 4 out of my 10 turns, I've had no tech advances. Two months of time. On my most recent turn, I had 15 techs finally come in that I put in the pipeline at the start of my position, that's a 5 month wait for such things as improved resources all at 1RC per turn. It's not a huge problem now, but how long is it going to take me to research to the Mk VI Standard Torpedo that I just discovered in an EXPL result. I could put more RC's on the path, but we've got this diminishing returns thing. I know its designed to force you to make choices, and trade items with neighbors to get ahead, but it still seems slow to me.

 

Furthermore, what is up with making us research things that a spacefaring race might already know. For example, a race that can put a Nuclear Engine onto a spacecraft MIGHT already know about the explosive nature of the energies involved and know how to build a Hydrogen Bomb. A race advanced enough to transport population, cargo and military between the stars MIGHT have figured out how to build a heavy truck to transport ground based cargo, population, and military. And honestly, should I REALLY have to research MACHINE GUN and JET FIGHTER???

 

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

Honored One Gsss'Shsst

Engulfing Branches of Shss'Tss'Saa

 

(Have you hugged a tree today?)

[WKE235]

For the Ground Combat techs ... I've pretty much started to ignore the names, and concentrated on what they give. You see, I figure with all the various techs you can research, Pete and Russ just ran out of cool names. To much stuff to name .. so the earliest versions got some names (and descriptions) that just do not seem to fit a space faring civilization. The result is you end up researching Heavy Truck (which gives a Fair Transport Capacity to your ground forces) even though you can build Space Cruisers able to travel from star to star. You have to research Light Tank even though your Cruiser is coated in Titanium Composite Armor. You have to research Razor Wire (to get to Electric Fence) while your Mk I Force Shields and Deflectors are protecting your ships. Seems weird ... but the benefit fits within the overall research flow.

 

So forget about the name and most of the description .. concentrate on what you get and it feels more complete, more in the proper research flow.

[Eldred]

I wish to register as second member of the Ur Lord's "lets keep the research slow" camp! IMHO empires should have to work hard for new tech. With too many games (eg CIV 3) it is too easy to climb the tech tree - with the result that newly developed units/installations etc are virtually obselete as soon as they have been built! I also like the realism of research in SNROTE.

 

By the way Ur Lord, any chance of posting your review on this board?

[hobknob]

Lets see. 1st Generation Species Engineering gives you 125 points to modify your lifeform with. Other than some ground combat options like claws asn such there is precious little that you could actually buy with 125 points especially if you already have taken an improved or unimprovement in the area. For me the most desirable improvements loook to be mental powers and some specific colony bonuses, but they look to be too costly at this point. Sice you can save your points it might be a better deal to wait for several advances and then get something realy good. The question is, what could you possible need 50 turns down the road that you won't have developed tech to compensate for? :lol:

[Ur Lord Tedric]

Vote for '235! The names don't matter, they're just there for flavour!

 

I'm afraid I just don't understand the fix that people (tech junkies must be about right) seem to need about getting tech in every turn.

 

Patience!

 

If you want a tech every turn, it's not so difficult to organise your RCs to do just that. Me, I'd rather plan and scheme. 20 turn ship building plans, that's for me!

 

That's time enough to build a decent number of ships and use then before they become a little long in the tooth. Then it's time for a technology refresh, with just one, or two little specials. Even then your older ships are still useful. You can even scrap them and reuse the parts if you want to - very not like real life. Or you can take them all to a less developed race and give them the whole ship - in parts anyway! Just like the USA, UK, France & Russia do.

 

I will be the first to admit that I also get impatient now and again. But, as all my advisors comment - it ain't broke, don't try to fix it.

 

The amount of SRPs saved is a matter of taste. It can give you a kick start, but only get you so far. If you're in it for the long term , even when you can modify your race, you still can't spend those 2000 ever again!

 

Mainly the busy and contented Chief Planner to Ur-Lord Tedric

 

PS If Pete & Russ choose not to publish the review on the RTG site, then I'll happily send it to anyone who asks (I don't want to fill up too much space here), but it will have to wait until publication date. When I get my Flagship, I'll post here.

[ShadowKitsune]

Yes, as a founding member of SAFER (Sentient Association For Expedited Research), I think R&D in SN:ROTE is too slow. However, as I feel that a review is essentially a glorified opinion piece, I did not take umbrage with the good Ur Lord Tedric's position on Research. Heck, at least he tells people that Research is pretty slow in SN:ROTE. To me, that was a good thing.

 

While I understand everyone's fears that SN:ROTE will become CIV3 or MOO2-like with technology creating rapidly outdated equipment, I think the pendulum swung too far the other direction in SN:ROTE. Although, I don't quite follow the CIV3 analogy, since most units can be upgraded and few things become absolutely obsolete in CIV3.

 

However, a big difference between CIV3 and SN:ROTE is that if you read through the rules and associative documentation in CIV3, you know what all the technological advancements do, both good and bad. This is not the case in SN:ROTE.

 

I've been in the game since Turn 1 and I can tell you that I am not averaging 2.25 techs per turn and I even have a few of the Research Bonus granting Lifeform advantages.

 

I know the likelihood that Pete will make such a change is between slim and none, for now, but I can always hope that my grassroots effort will blossom into a groundswell of desire ... and maybe, just maybe, Pete will double everybody's RC output.